[Malcolm Hedges]

Little experiment this morning, pre heated the car for 30 minutes between 06:45 and 07:15, temp set to 22, car plugged into Zappi. Charger delivered 3.5kw and SOC stayed the same at 92%. Wife left in the car at 08:30 (could be crucial?) to go shopping, here is the result:

As TB would say "what they heck?"

 

[Tooks]

Yes, you let the car interior and battery cool down for 1hr 15mins until you used it, which meant the battery and interior had to be heated up again?

The ID.3 clearly has a beefy heater, it heats up more quickly than my e-Golf did in my view.

It‘s also 1c on the display, you’re asking for 22c, that’s a big delta.

What would your Tesla do in the same scenario?

 

[5erge]

I have to say the heaters in the ID are brilliant and warm air filters through the car in seconds, with temps as low as they are at present it's mightily impressive.

Must confess I never really look at miles per kWh and round town I don't really care what its consumption is. I just drive the car and as long as it will do 200+ miles in the summer, which I imagine it will do, I will be more than happy.

 

[Steve peacock]

Yes, I noticed first thing on a cold morning the cars consumption is about 10kw/h just sat on the driveway!

 

[Malcolm Hedges]

Don't really monitor the Tesla because we don't use it for this sort of stuff and with the efficiency and capacity of the battery it's not been an issue (only had it since March to be fair) I'll try another test tomorrow. Compared to the i3 it looks strange, 33kw battery, winter range on a trip round the M25 would be 100 miles, summer 120. At the moment from a usable range perspective I'm an idiot, should have stuck with the i3. Looking at the tests people like Next Move have done it does seem as if there is an issue with efficiency in colder temperatures / the battery needs to be treated nicely. Bearing in mind the energy consumption from the home charger I wonder what the optimal time (and hence energy usage) would be to heat the cabin and the battery up for ? Is this the sort of efficiency e-Golf owners have experienced ?

This one does have proper doors though.

 

[Tooks]

Don't really monitor the Tesla because we don't use it for this sort of stuff and with the efficiency and capacity of the battery it's not been an issue (only had it since March to be fair) I'll try another test tomorrow. Compared to the i3 it looks strange, 33kw battery, winter range on a trip round the M25 would be 100 miles, summer 120. At the moment from a usable range perspective I'm an idiot, should have stuck with the i3. Looking at the tests people like Next Move have done it does seem as if there is an issue with efficiency in colder temperatures / the battery needs to be treated nicely. Bearing in mind the energy consumption from the home charger I wonder what the optimal time (and hence energy usage) would be to heat the cabin and the battery up for ? Is this the sort of efficiency e-Golf owners have experienced ?

This one does have proper doors though.

Ok, so you don’t really monitor the Tesla because with its efficiency and capacity it isn’t an issue. It isn’t in the ID.3 either then.

I did just over a 3 hour 175 mile drive home last night in sub zero temps, and snow, in the dark, with heating and seat/steering wheel heater on. I didn’t have to stop to charge and arrived home with battery to spare.

Your i3 couldn’t do that, and nor could any e-Golf. It is what it is, and everybody will forget about it when you’re sailing past 200 miles when it gets warmer. I’ve already had over 200 miles out of a charge the first week I had it, when the temps were in the teens rather than freezing.

 

[Rooster-x]

Zoe on about 2.9 mpkwh in this cold weather just doing short 6 mile runs and pre-heating for 5 mins to melt the ice and snow off in the morning, not plugged in. Reset the GOM after charging it the other day so this is as bad as the consumption can get as far as I've seen.

 

[Malcolm Hedges]

Ok, so you don’t really monitor the Tesla because with its efficiency and capacity it isn’t an issue. It isn’t in the ID.3 either then

No, the Tesla is so efficient and has such a large battery that I don't need to monitor it. The ID.3 is so inefficient and with a smaller battery that I feel despite buying it for doing the run a round, when my wife does her 120 mile round trip to her bosses house, she might not make it back without having to charge. In the i3 we got away with that by using the rex. From memory (I've removed the car now from the account) we we got 3.2m/kwh over 3 years and 27k miles on the i3

And before you ask, no she won't be using the Tesla, that was the other point of buying the VW. Or as she cunningly put it "do you really want me driving your car?" Obviously knows how to play me

 

[Tooks]

No, the Tesla is so efficient and has such a large battery that I don't need to monitor it. The ID.3 is so inefficient and with a smaller battery that I feel despite buying it for doing the run a round, when my wife does her 120 mile round trip to her bosses house, she might not make it back without having to charge. In the i3 we got away with that by using the rex. From memory (I've removed the car now from the account) we we got 3.2m/kwh over 3 years and 27k miles on the i3

And before you ask, no she won't be using the Tesla, that was the other point of buying the VW. Or as she cunningly put it "do you really want me driving your car?" Obviously knows how to play me

Unless she attempts the 120 mile round trip at an average speed of over 80mph, in freezing temps, she’ll be fine.

Lest you think I’m some kind of VW fanboi, don’t take my word for it, watch the test videos by Tesla Bjorn or BatteryLife on YouTube.

I’m not finding the ID.3 inefficient in my 4000 miles so far, but it does use more juice in the cold for sure, what EV doesn’t though?

 

[Rooster-x]

Problem with boxy hatchbacks is they are inefficient at speed down the motorway, slowing down from 70mph to 60mph makes a big difference, I assume the Tesla is a bit more slippery and is a better motorway miles cruncher.

 

[TomH]

Unless she attempts the 120 mile round trip at an average speed of over 80mph, in freezing temps, she’ll be fine.

Lest you think I’m some kind of VW fanboi, don’t take my word for it, watch the test videos by Tesla Bjorn or BatteryLife on YouTube.

I’m not finding the ID.3 inefficient in my 4000 miles so far, but it does use more juice in the cold for sure, what EV doesn’t though?

Maybe an ID 3 with a heat pump?
Mine has one but I have not been anywhere so can't really contribute.

 

[Tooks]

Maybe an ID 3 with a heat pump?
Mine has one but I have not been anywhere so can't really contribute.

Even an ID.3 with a heat pump will still use more juice in the winter than in the summer. albeit there should be less of a delta.

The one video I can find on YouTube that attempts to answer the question seems to suggest the heat pump car is about 10-15% more efficient at just under zero temps. It should in theory be better than that at even lower temps if the charts floating around are to be believed.

Which doesn’t really matter if you’re doing a 24 mile round trip, it’s only a factor if you want to do more than 190 mile journeys in freezing temps and the heat pump would give you extra margin and possibly avoid a charge stop.

I suppose you’d also save a bit of cash on electricity over your ownership, but most people wouldn’t get that back over the time they own the car, so I think most people spec them for the bit of extra range which is probably worth more to you if you need it.

 

[Alessandro Volta of Como]

In the next move video about this it shows the battery heater working and drawing a lot of power for the first 14 minutes or something so if you just do lots of short trips with longish stops in between in winter the efficiency will look poor. However on a longer trip the effects of a warmer battery and the longer journey time after the initial heating massively reduces the effect.

 

[Tooks]

In the next move video about this it shows the battery heater working and drawing a lot of power for the first 14 minutes or something so if you just do lots of short trips with longish stops in between in winter the efficiency will look poor on a longer trip the effects of a warmer battery and the longer journey time after the initial heating massively reduces the effect.

That’s exactly what I’m finding.

The short trip to pick up or drop off at school has me at 1.something miles per kWh.

My weekly long trip returns low 3s.

All in the current cold weather of course.

 

[Mr_ess_jay]

Problem with boxy hatchbacks is they are inefficient at speed down the motorway, slowing down from 70mph to 60mph makes a big difference, I assume the Tesla is a bit more slippery and is a better motorway miles cruncher.

Just for the sake of interest, the 2019 Zoe has a drag coefficient of 0.29, the ID3 has one of 0.26 and the model S has one of 0.24. The fancy Tesla retracting door handles and saloon like shape no doubt work well.

For reference, the mk7 Golf has one of 0.29, which given its size when compared to the Zoe is good going in my eyes.

Hatchbacks aren't always as draggy as they have reputation for being an the extra fins and trims on the ID3 seem to have good results as part of the package.

 

[mrsaffron237]

Lighter and smaller will win at this time of year. Smaller battery to warm up and less cabin volume.

heater is such that turn on heater remotely while find shoes, mask coat etc and warm once I sit car. So don’t see point of very long pre heats.

 

[Woodulike]

I've just found this thread and I'm with Malcolm on this one, as Tooks and others will have guessed.
I got 1.8 on my 12 mile, 23 minute drive to work this morning. I deliberately didn't preheat to see how bad it would be at -1.

My windows were all defrosted though, as if the car was keeping itself warm.

I check back on the app to last winter and the lowest I ever got in the Golf was 2.5

It's not the cost, that tiny, my question is why is it using so much power to heat the car/battery. I've changed to EV to be more efficient, this just isn't.
Now it will be at its worst but is it still going to be less efficient than many EVs right through the spring and autumn? I expect so unless VW do something in the software so I wasn't them to know they need to be working harder at that. Maybe they know that, maybe they don't care.

 

[njm106]

I've just done a short trip to my allotment and back, no more than 2 miles and I noticed that the miles per kWh actually went up the faster I was going, presumably this is because the battery heater is pulling 7kW of power regardless of the speed your doing so going faster helps to a point.

So 2 short trips max 2 miles covered and the battery % lost was 4-5%, extrapolating that up 100% would give about 40-50 miles! Now clearly the efficiency is better on a longer run as the battery heats up but for short journeys, especially at a low speed, the efficiency is going to look terrible in winter.

Bjørn has just uploaded a video today covering the battery heater on the model 3 in -16 C and it looks like that only pulls 2-3 kWs for the battery heater unless you put in a charging destination and then it goes up to 7+, I'm thinking VW just need tweak something in the software or at least give us the option to turn it down/off.

 

[Tooks]

I've just found this thread and I'm with Malcolm on this one, as Tooks and others will have guessed.
I got 1.8 on my 12 mile, 23 minute drive to work this morning. I deliberately didn't preheat to see how bad it would be at -1.

My windows were all defrosted though, as if the car was keeping itself warm.

I check back on the app to last winter and the lowest I ever got in the Golf was 2.5

It's not the cost, that tiny, my question is why is it using so much power to heat the car/battery. I've changed to EV to be more efficient, this just isn't.
Now it will be at its worst but is it still going to be less efficient than many EVs right through the spring and autumn? I expect so unless VW do something in the software so I wasn't them to know they need to be working harder at that. Maybe they know that, maybe they don't care.

You see for me, as an aviation professional, this doesn’t scare me. Maybe I’m used to vehicles using more fuel/energy in the startup and takeoff phase, it’s consumption in the cruise I’m more concerned about and ultimately ‘how far can it go mister’!

Using your figures, the e-Golf was about 28% more efficient than the ID.3.

Some other figures are the ID.3 is at least 12% heavier, 33% more powerful and its temperature controlled battery about 42% higher capacity.

I think there is a lot of battery warming going on early doors in a journey, something the e-Golf could never do, that alone will likely account for most of the difference. It’s also a more powerful car.

I think there might be some mileage in VW being able to tweak software somewhere down the line, if they agree it’s a problem, but I guess we’ll see what happens when it warms up, and in any event they need to finalise the general software first.

Have you tried pre-heating with the seatbelt clicked in and the car powered up? I know it can’t be in drive mode in that configuration, but I wonder if that will start the battery heating/cooling circuits and take power from the wall box rather than the traction battery? I wonder if it does whether the software even accounts for that in the reported consumption number.

I suspect we’re all starting to overthink it to be honest, like you I can’t see why it would be any less efficient from a cold start than an e-tron, but they do have heat pumps, and an owner on here stated he’s seeing 2 to 2.5 in current temps.

 

[Mr_ess_jay]

In the aviation world you have to consider range vs endurance and I certainly hope we don't go down the endurance route with these repeated topics!

For heating, I think it works on pressure on the seat and not whether the seat belt is plugged in or not. Mine certainly recognises when you leave the seat and not when you unclip.