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The 120ah probably could if you were driving it carefully.

Definitely wouldn't with me driving, but nor does my ID3 with me at the wheel!
That would be over 4 miles per kWh, I’m not sure the i3 would do that at zero degrees, I think most owners quote 150 as a good number. Unless we’re talking drafting trucks etc.

Interestingly, I stumbled across a review of the i3 the other day where it mentioned cold weather short trip efficiency being poor as the car heated the cabin and battery every time. I believe some of the i3 team worked on the ID.3, I wonder if that influenced it?

It’s a good reminder though that my original i3 60Ah Rex couldn’t cover 175 miles on both the pack and petrol tank, shows how far things have come.
 

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That would be over 4 miles per kWh, I’m not sure the i3 would do that at zero degrees, I think most owners quote 150 as a good number. Unless we’re talking drafting trucks etc.

Interestingly, I stumbled across a review of the i3 the other day where it mentioned cold weather short trip efficiency being poor as the car heated the cabin and battery every time. I believe some of the i3 team worked on the ID.3, I wonder if that influenced it?

It’s a good reminder though that my original i3 60Ah Rex couldn’t cover 175 miles on both the pack and petrol tank, shows how far things have come.
And my 24kWh Leaf would need reasonably careful driving just to get to Cambridge Services. I wouldn't want to drive 140 miles in one of those.

I was joking but you are getting better efficiency than I am. I'll have to try harder.

I've just realised that Google maps said my Sunday trip would be 145 miles but the car recorded 140. Maybe there's discrepancy in other figures as well. I know you've mention this before but I had thought about that in regards to my trip. I'm used to VW over recording efficiency in ICE cars.

I haven't read anything about the i3 numbers in the cold. I have read the Leaf isn't much better over the last few days and one thread about the Niro being really low, but that's a one off, not the same for everyone so it's probably driving style. I'll be looking in the i3 section now!
 

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I think that come spring / summer all this will be quickly forgotten. After a couple of years of driving EVs (this is now my third winter) I just accept that whatever the summer range was the winter will suck around 20-30% of that. I reconciled with myself (pre-covid) that I’m fortunate that family are close by and outside of my 78 mile commute we tended to stick to our own county during winter, because we never really fancied venturing that far from home. In fact this has got me thinking that (in a normal year) I should track my range per month and see what the seasonal +/- is in range, I wouldn’t be surprised if it correlates to the decreased range of the cars, just because I don’t have the need or desire to venture that far when the cold kicks in (easy to say in relatively mild Northern England).

I watched the video (and the Niro and Model 3, love Bjorn’s vids, especially the longer form ones, perfect while having lunch) and I found myself impressed with all three.

I think once we see evidence that VW have got their ID software sorted the 3 and 4 are going to be the sweet spot cars for most people, with the Kona and Niro only behind if the Koreans can’t produce at volume.

This isn’t to say Tesla M3 isn’t a great car, but it’s going to be become (already is becoming) the BMW 3 series of the EV world, as I took from Stageshoots 10K review v the Kona. Still as others have said, it’s probably a (second hand) itch I’ll eventually scratch 😂, and maybe regret.
 
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I was thinking about this earlier, the fact that short journeys seem to be so inefficient, a 2 mile journey for example only returning 1.2 per kWh. In an ICE, the engine may not have fully warmed and therefor the cabin would not have been warmed. Our EVs are trying to heat the cabin straight away. My suggestion, turn the heater off for the short journeys and see what happens. I suspect energy usage will go down considerably.
 

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I was thinking about this earlier, the fact that short journeys seem to be so inefficient, a 2 mile journey for example only returning 1.2 per kWh. In an ICE, the car may not have fully warmed and therefor the cabin would not have been warmed. Our EVs are trying to heat the cabin straight away. My suggestion, turn the heater off for the short journeys and see what happens. I suspect energy usage will go down considerably.
I'm sure that you are right. But I'd rather be warm than efficient on my short journeys.
 

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EGGY
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Discussion Starter #86
I think a summary of peoples experience here is ...

Efficiency is worse than expected and worse than on an e-Golf
There doesn't seem much you can do to mitigate this significantly, preheating seems to use 10kw/h
Once the battery warms, efficiency improves (shock)
You're looking at 130-140 mile range in cold weather at motorway speeds. To impove on that you need to select "Driving Miss Daisy" mode. That will be in software release 3.0
The immediate solution is to live with it and wait until the weather warms up.
Good luck getting any sense out of the VW dealers
 
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You're looking at 130-140 mile range in cold weather at motorway speeds. To impove on that you need to select "Driving Miss Daisy" mode.
Have you tried putting the brick under the accelerator rather than on it?! 😉😁

I think that estimate is very much on the low side, from my experience, and I don’t think I “drive like miss daisy” either, whatever that means. It might be different for you and me though, I accept that.
 

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It will be interesting to see how VW addresses these cold weather efficiency issues. Now they are getting quite widespread criticism.
Is it purely a software issue re the battery, cabin heating algorithm? If so you’d think they could copy what the likes of Tesla do.
You’d think the relevant hardware components in the cars would not be too different.
 

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Have you tried putting the brick under the accelerator rather than on it?! 😉😁

I think that estimate is very much on the low side, from my experience, and I don’t think I “drive like miss daisy” either, whatever that means. It might be different for you and me though, I accept that.
I travelled about 170 miles in sub zero temps in two 80 mile segments at either end of the day and got home with 12 miles on the gom. Mainly dual carriageway 65mph. So I think winter range is about 180 miles. Think we're going to see well over 200 miles once temps gets to double figures. The car draws a lot of power at the beginning of a journey warming cabin and battery (>7kw).
 

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I travelled about 170 miles in sub zero temps in two 80 mile segments at either end of the day and got home with 12 miles on the gom. Mainly dual carriageway 65mph. So I think winter range is about 180 miles. Think we're going to see well over 200 miles once temps gets to double figures. The car draws a lot of power at the beginning of a journey warming cabin and battery (>7kw).
Yes, we had a warmish spell just after I got my car, I got just over 200 miles when temps were in the teens.
 

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Actually, Miss Daisy didn't do any driving at all! She was the elegant lady in the back of the limo, insisting her driver go no faster than 30 mph (or something like that, ages since I saw the film "Driving Miss Daisy", worth watching!). :)

I can say that the ID.3 58 kWh with Heatpump is capable of 175 miles (give-or-take a few) at genuine 70 mph in wet conditions at 10C, on the original Goodyear tyres that mine has. See my first post here:
ID.3 58 kWh+HeatPump .vs. Ioniq 38.4 kWh...

But the Heatpump should be making a difference. See the video here, you can skip the travelling stuff in the middle!
EV News rides again!
Trip was 89 miles at 56 mph GPS, actual average was 53 mph so a very steady dual-carriageway cruise at somewhere between 1.5C and 5.5C. At the end, the H-pump ID.3 GOM claimed to have 20 miles more range left that the non-Hp one.

So that sounds like a 20 mile difference after an 89 mile trip? Not so fast! This is the predicted difference if you empty the battery to 0% SOC! Remember that GOM learns from prev driving patterns, which are probably totally different for these 2 EVs, one of which has just been driven 400 km for this video! We shall therefore ignore the GOM remaining-range guesses as being inaccurate & probably misleading.

We have the figures for what the EVs measured at km/kWh etc, and I think these will be decently accurate.

I've chucked the figures into a spreadsheet, here are the results. It predicts a 7% drop in range for the non-Heatpump equipped car, versus the one with heatpump. (For a car costing £28k w/o heatpump let's say, a 7% price increase takes you to £30k, but you only pay £1250 extra for it, so I consider this money reasonably spent).

139548


V interesting to see the Rapid efficiency at around 77%; my latest 6A v-slow charge has just managed 85% on an 11 to 80% refill. Looks like the Ionity Rapids used in this video were probably heating the battery packs at the same time as charging them up, and no doubt the much higher current passing through the battery and other cables etc must lead to I*I*R losses being much greater as well?

Using 77% as the Rapid efficiency, a 100% SOC fill would take 77.3 kWh, whereas my 6A 100% SOC fill would take 68.2 kWh, so that's 9 kWh more on a Rapid!

Edit: fixed labels in spreadsheet, slap wrist, was muddling up Power & Energy!
 
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Lots of things to look at, one I don’t know is how quickly does battery pack revert to outside temperature ie. how well insulated is it.

Thought is that as day time highs in Jan so far have been low that battery pack is not naturally warming at all really.

Rule seems to be if you absolutely need 200 mile range the bigger 77kwh is going to be way to go. Software tweaks may let us eek more out next winter though.

for short journeys loving the warm very quickly cabin though.
 

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Actually, Miss Daisy didn't do any driving at all! She was the elegant lady in the back of the limo, insisting her driver go no faster than 30 mph (or something like that, ages since I saw the film "Driving Miss Daisy", worth watching!). :)

I can say that the ID.3 58 kWh with Heatpump is capable of 175 miles (give-or-take a few) at genuine 70 mph in wet conditions at 10C, on the original Goodyear tyres that mine has. See my first post here:
ID.3 58 kWh+HeatPump .vs. Ioniq 38.4 kWh...

But the Heatpump should be making a difference. See the video here, you can skip the travelling stuff in the middle!
EV News rides again!
Trip was 89 miles at 56 mph GPS, actual average was 53 mph so a very steady dual-carriageway cruise at somewhere between 1.5C and 5.5C. At the end, the H-pump ID.3 GOM claimed to have 20 miles more range left that the non-Hp one.

So that sounds like a 20 mile difference after an 89 mile trip? Not so fast! This is the predicted difference if you empty the battery to 0% SOC! Remember that GOM learns from prev driving patterns, which are probably totally different for these 2 EVs, one of which has just been driven 400 km for this video! We shall therefore ignore the GOM remaining-range guesses as being inaccurate & probably misleading.

We have the figures for what the EVs measured at km/kWh etc, and I think these will be decently accurate.

I've chucked the figures into a spreadsheet, here are the results. It predicts a 7% drop in range for the non-Heatpump equipped car, versus the one with heatpump. (For a car costing £28k w/o heatpump let's say, a 7% price increase takes you to £30k, but you only pay £1250 extra for it, so I consider this money reasonably spent).

View attachment 139547

V interesting to see the Rapid efficiency at around 77%; my latest 6A v-slow charge has just managed 85% on an 11 to 80% refill. Looks like the Ionity Rapids used in this video were probably heating the battery packs at the same time as charging them up, and no doubt the much higher current passing through the battery and other cables etc must lead to I*I*R losses being much greater as well?

Using 77% as the Rapid efficiency, a 100% SOC fill would take 77.3 kWh, whereas my 6A 100% SOC fill would take 68.2 kWh, so that's 9 kWh more on a Rapid!
Sorry HandyAndy - your spread sheet is interesting but you appear to using the word power when it should be energy. It may all be clear to you, but for others its a rather fundamental aspect to getting the correct understanding of discharging and charging processes...
 

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EGGY
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Discussion Starter #94

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Lots of things to look at, one I don’t know is how quickly does battery pack revert to outside temperature ie. how well insulated is it.

Thought is that as day time highs in Jan so far have been low that battery pack is not naturally warming at all really.

Rule seems to be if you absolutely need 200 mile range the bigger 77kwh is going to be way to go. Software tweaks may let us eek more out next winter though.

for short journeys loving the warm very quickly cabin though.
I think the 77 would leave me seriously ‘over batteried’ for most of the year. I like to sweat battery assets.

If we accept for arguments sake that the zero degrees winter range of a non heat pump 58 kWh ID.3 is 180 miles, for me that’s over 3 hours driving at my 55-59 mph real world average speed.

I don’t know about anybody else, but I need a break by then, and a 15 min stop on even a 50 kW charger would get you around 12 kWh or another 30+ miles.

If you can find a 100 kW+ charger in the right place then 12 minutes gets you the extra 19 kWh of a 77.

The 77 is too compromised for me, 4 seater and even heavier than the Pro Performance version, and slower as well.

All EVs are a compromise somewhere, but hopefully VW can tweak things in the future, the cold temp battery heating thing is certainly something they’re aware of.
 

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EGGY
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Genuinely never seen the film,
Obviously to young :)

@HandyAndy The "energy being consumed in heating the battery thing" is interesting, a more extreme example of what I have seen at home, not sure what that tells us about the BMS and how it is managing heating the battery and if that is a software tweak rather than a hardware change ? I'm not sure if this makes any sense but if energy is being used to heat the battery is that the best use of the energy or should it be used to push the car forwards ?

Anyone know what that whole system on the ID.3 looks like in comparison to the e-Golf ? Are the batteries the same design ?

Speculation city here (that's a 70's reference)
 
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