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I can't remember who, but someone linked to the Kufatech rear speakers on another thread and I was just wondering if anyone knows much about it? If it wasn't for the pandemic I'd be tempted to drive over to Germany to be the donor car, but as that's not possible I'm wondering how easy it's likely to be to get someone in the UK to fit these for me?

The page has this note,

"At the moment, the respective control unit must be unlocked for a limited time before using the dongle. This must be done by a workshop with valid GEKO access."​

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What does this mean? Does that mean only a VW dealer would be able to do it? Presumably they wouldn't do it though as they'd grumble about the warranty? I guess what I'm asking is, what are the chances of me finding someone who could fit these in the UK, and what sort of person should I be looking for? VW dealer? Car audio specialist? etc.

I linked to it, amongst others, but as you’ve discovered the problem at the moment is that the retrofit would need coding.

Things have changed on the ID.3, VW are moving away from the CANBUS protocol and the third party tool providers are still reverse engineering it. I understand though that due to EU laws they do have to release information that allows third party maintainers to work on and service the vehicles, so that shouldn’t be a long term barrier.

VW dealers will probably quote to retrofit, but obviously you’ll be paying VW labour prices too, and they don’t have much capacity at the moment, obviously.

You could perhaps retrofit yourself, and then just pay for the coding part?

I expect all this will be ironed out in time, it’s just a new car and the usual third party suppliers haven’t developed anything yet.

Just turn the radio up, then it fills the car!

 

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Oh, well, if dealers will start providing an official rear speaker retrofit for the ID.3 then that’s what I’d go for even at premium prices. I just didn’t think they’d do something like that? But if they did it with the Golf, then maybe...?

I didn’t think they’d retrofit the tow hitch kit, but they do.

To be honest, if VW are going to wrestle control of the software and other updates away from the dealers, then they should be embracing the retrofit market if it materialises.

 

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I’ve always found listening to music and being in a car with the associated road noise etc to be a mixed experience, I listen mainly to spoken word radio or podcasts etc.

Mainly for that reason I’m finding the front 5 speaker system fine, but I do agree it can’t have saved much money omitting rear speakers.

 

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It's not always about saving money. Sometimes they use this kind of thing to create some differentiation between the models.

Yes, agreed, but to leave it off your first edition of something seems odd, unless you’re already selling at a loss.

My somewhat tongue in cheek signature alludes to that!

 

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My 60Ah i3 didn’t have rear speakers either.

Just seems to be one of those things that sometimes happens with car specs, but as I’ve said, I listen mainly to spoken word radio or podcasts, or shock horror have the radio off, so for me it’s fine.

 

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Ah, so the drive selector isn’t the only thing VW nicked from BMW then!

True!

It occurred to me the other day as I threaded my arm through the gap between the wheel and the centre screen to put the screen de-mister on max, that the reason the light panel is there is because the drive selector blocks the view to where it should be on a right hand drive vehicle.

I guess they decided it was cheaper to mould the dash top to take the light panel rather than re-engineer the drive selector to be on the left of the wheel so that it mirrors the LHD setup. It would mean selecting drive with your left hand, but I’m sure we could have managed!

 

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I think that the design was deliberate so that you use the gear selector with your right hand and the light panel with your left in both LHD and RHD.

Yes, probably, but it would have looked and worked better the other way around for me, and I’m not left handed either.

I do find the light panel fiddly to get to, fortunately I don’t need to use it much, but the rear de-mister gets a fair bit of use.

 

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@Tooks latest mocking of my rear speaker obsession prompted me to do a little googling today, and spotted this page.

Looks like only €599 for rear speakers and upgraded front speakers, fully installed! Too good to be true? Maybe UK car audio specialists will offer similar packages at some point, but if they haven't by the time travel into Europe is possible again I would so drive to Holland for that! I'd make a little holiday out of it on the way.

Though, as it doesn't mention the centre speaker, I'm suspicious that this isn't actually a package they've developed for the ID.3 and they just have a generic speaker upgrade kit that they just copy/paste onto all the car-specific pages. If so, probably doubtful they've actually figured out how to do the programming of the ID.3 infotainment system to accept the new speakers, right?

I’m still investigating which modules are protected on the ID.3 and which ones will allow adaptation with the existing tools available.

I’d hope that the one where you let the system know there are rear speakers connected so that the fader works should be fairly ‘open’, but it depends how it’s implemented I suppose.

Kufatec list the OEM part numbers for retrofit, they exist in other ID.3s so it should be possible and I’m sure the Dutch company you’ve linked to have worked it out.

The biggest pain for the rear speaker retrofit will be running the wiring, I keep meaning to have a look at what’s already in the rear doors so I could work out speaker size etc, but don’t want to introduce any rattles.

Realistically, I’m already 3 months into an ownership period that will likely be only 2 or 3 years max, so that and the fact I’m mostly a spoken word radio guy (except when the news is just Covid/Covid/Covid!) means I’ll probably just leave it and spec it on the next car. I really want an AWD ID.3, so if they bring one of those out I’ll be too tempted, even if for some reason it still only has the 5 speaker front biased system!

 

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I may even be tempted to stump up for the big boy €1849 package with the amp and subwoofer Depending on how well the sub is integrated and whether it's compatible with the false boot floor I have in my Family trim ID.3

In that case, I’d also consider slamming it on air suspension and getting some neon under sill lighting, and maybe some strobes?! 😂

IIRC from your old avatar, you’re more Norm Abram than Norman Cook though, so maybe not! 😁😉

 

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Combination of lockdown boredom and my well documented rear speaker obsession made me think, I should at least contact a local car audio specialist to see what they'd advise for the ID.3. Got this back,

"We have ODIS-online which is the VW dealer level diagnostic tool and we regularly activate and install speaker in the VW T6. However, we have not tried to code any accessories in the ID.3 yet so we are not sure what coding is available. Ideally, we would need to get the vehicle in for some R&D to check the size and space available for the speakers and see if ODIS has information online to activate the rear outputs.​

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It is unlikely that the wiring is present so this would need running to the back of the head unit. As a guestimate, I would estimate a cost of £350-400+VAT but we would need to see the vehicle first.​

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We are currently closed for lockdown but are taking bookings now from 3rd May onwards if you would like to go ahead."​

So we have two approaches on offer now,

1. The Dutch method, which is to avoid any of the software stuff at all and just go 'old school' by taking the stereo output from the infotainment system, running it into a new 4-channel amp, and running that to new front and rear speakers. Downside is that it is expensive. Upside is likely a bigger overall upgrade in sound, plus I avoid worrying whether VW software updates will screw over any rear speaker related recoding.
2. The British method, which is to have a go at doing the software recoding stuff in order to just fit rear speakers. Half the price, though less overall sound improvement. And who knows the implications of rooting around in the VW software for either warranty purposes, or long-term reliability of the new speakers - will VW 'break' my speaker upgrade with every software update?

Anyone have a view on which method would be preferable? Other option is to hope that VW bring out an official solution for it, but there is currently no evidence that they ever will, and I could be waiting forever.

Seems the UK installer is familiar with ODIS and coding modifications, but they’re unlikely to have come across the SFD protected modules like in the ID.3 yet, so they might have trouble both adapting them and making those adaptations ‘stick’. I guess that’s why they want the car for a ‘play’ and up to you whether you want them poking about electronically and possibly bricking modules. But, on the plus side you’ve also got a warranty come back with a local company?

I quite like the Dutch company’s approach too though, but I’m sure the UK installer you’re in contact with could do the same with intercepting the analogue output and splitting it via an Amp?

 

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My e-Golf didn’t have a sub either, which is what makes me think it’s basically just the fact that all the sound comes at me from the front in the ID.3 that I just don’t like.

Have you tried driving in reverse to see if that improves matters?

 

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You never know, the system might see the speakers once they are plugged in and auto-allow for the eq to move rearward as well. Unless it's actually tried, everyone is just guessing and assuming vw are trying to screw everyone over with module coding. The coding might just be set to accept whatever speakers it sees and not kick up a fuss over the ones it doesn't

Who's feeling brave enough to plug the front speakers into the rear?!

I’ve got some fakra connectors in the workshop, and some pins that will slot in.

I might actually make a couple of short looms up to test a pair of speakers, if it works like you suggest, it would then be worth making up some looms and running them myself.

I doubt the head unit is different between rear speaker cars or not, but I’ll have a look.

All in the interests of research for @loggamatt you understand!

 

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So @loggamatt, Tooks Labs has been tinkering today to see what the deal is for those of us without rear speakers.

Removing the glovebox and pulling the Audio/Comms box out, it’s a fairly unremarkable unit, this is the part number on mine.

Rear connectors are as follows, as expected there are only 4 wires going in representing left and right front speakers. The centre speaker is fed from elsewhere on the Quadlock connector. Bad news I guess, means wiring will have to be run if you want rears.

There are 8 pin outs on the head unit though.

More bad news though, I made up a little test rig with a speaker I had in the workshop and with plug in Quadlock pins at the head unit end. I fed these into the vacant holes in the speaker plug, and nothing, nada, zip.

So, looks like software adaptation at least is required to activate those speaker inputs, and presumably the fader function as well.

When I connected the test speaker to either of the live speaker terminals, I did get sound, so there would be a ‘ghetto’ way of getting rear speakers without coding or an Amp, as long as you were happy without fade control. There would be a slight risk you’d have too much speaker for the built in Amp though, although I expect there’s spare for normal volumes.

Anyway, there it is, sorry it wasn’t better news! Oh, and there are definitely no rear speakers fitted to mine, it’s easy to see through the door grills with a phone torch and it’s just a foam blanking plate.

If you got a pair of rear speakers that were easy to drive, and then just ran some cables to the head unit, and spliced into an adaptor leaving the wiring untouched, it would probably work ok and give you that rear sound stage you crave, but to do anything more than that is going to require quite a bit more cash by the looks of it.

 

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@Tooks how did you get the unit out? I looked again this afternoon and couldn't work out how to get it forwards without pulling the dash apart!

With regards to connecting more speakers is normally possible to add more speakers without causing issues. A second speaker increases the resistance but amps will usually deliver more watts at a higher resistance.
You would need to find out the spec of the amp abs the speakers fitted but iirc in hifi terms a 50 watt amp delivers those 50 Watts at 8 ohms will deliver maybe 80 Watts at 4 ohms.
If the speakers in the front doors are 8 ohms adding a second pair of 8 ohm speakers in the rear doors will still work fine as the resistance will now be 4 ohms. The amp might be working a little harder but will still be well within spec as it is able to deliver more watts when the resistance is increased.
Unless you are turning the volume up really high all the time it's unlikely the amp would working hard anyway.

Yeah, I’m thinking if I ‘do’ rear speakers at all, it’ll just be that method, I’ll splice them in to a 52pin Quadlock extension so I don’t touch the vehicle wiring at all.

Getting the unit out was a squeeze on mine, I pulled it forward and angled it down and wiggled until it was just the top of the unit at the back stuck, then applied upward pressure with both my thumbs to the dash trim at that point to get enough clearance to withdraw the unit. The trim you’re pushing up is usually behind the glovebox so any marks won’t be seen.

Getting it back in is just as tight, but again thumb pressure up on the trim to get it past the corner worked.

Rear speaker cable routing looks straightforward enough at first glance, no awkward bends, I’d probably go under the carpet from the drivers side B pillar to join up with the passenger side.

I might remove one of the front door trims tomorrow and have a look at the stock speaker ratings, if they’re marked up anywhere.

 

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You might be able to feed all the speakers from the 3rd party amp but you would be disconnecting the front speakers from the OEM head unit and I am not sure how clever the the OEM head unit is. It may not like not seeing any speakers being connected it may see this as a fault.

When I was mucking about carrying out serious testing earlier (🤣), I can confirm that the head unit was quite happy with the speaker plug removed entirely, and then only the centre dash speaker worked.

 

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So I guess then it's just a question of whether running the existing front speakers through a new 3rd party amp (instead of the amp in the VW head unit) would improve their sound quality enough to be worth the added expense of getting a 4-channel amp to feed them and the rear speakers instead of getting a 2-channel amp to feed only the rear speakers? Noting that the extra expense may be the extra price of the 4-channel amp plus greater labour costs if the 4-channel amp has to be placed in a less convenient location due to being bulkier.

Yep, I think the 2 channel amp is the way I’d go if I was following you down this particular rabbit hole. My interest is piqued I have to say.

I’ll wait and see how the software update goes next week, but could be a nice little project. 👍

 

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There is decent space the for both a powered sub and a 2ch amp although you could find space for the amp behind the dashboard. They are pretty small.

Any recommendations for a suitable 2 channel Amp?

Asking for a friend... 😂

 

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@Tooks @loggamatt

I took the opportunity to take a picture of my audio unit as well.
Looks lik a differant part number but that might be due to base firmware version:

View attachment 141718

Yes, seems to be a sticker over the original on yours as well, same as mine.

I wonder if they’ll stick another sticker on when they upgrade mine next week?

 

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Are they upgrading you to 2.0 or 2.1 ?

2.1.

I was booked in last week, but the master tech called and said it wasn’t available until tomorrow.

 

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Sonos partners with Audi to bring its audio tech to cars

Sonos is quickly expanding beyond home audio.

www.theverge.com

So, the new Audi coming soon gets Sonos, while all we want is rear speakers. Not too much to ask surely.

It’s not, you just need to have chosen a model that has rear speakers?

The courtesy Golf 8 I’ve got has rear speakers, as an experiment on my long drive yesterday evening, I moved the fader all the way forwards to simulate my ID.3.

It wasn’t that different to be honest, certainly I’m back to not being bothered about the lack of them.

Far more noticeable to me was how much the engine and other noise in the Golf intrudes on the experience of listening to music, I won’t miss that when I get my car back!