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Discussion Starter #1
There's a survey available on the Source London site about requirements for the new scheme - I strongly encourage everyone to fill it in!

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/sourcelondon

In the last section (Any Other Comments), I wrote the following:
Please implement a per kWh charge - *not* time-based charging. York CC have just introduced 15p/kWh charging: excellent; Milton Keynes time-based charging is massively overpriced and usage of chargepoints has dropped dramatically as a result.
 
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I still don't understand the concern over per kWh charging for slow posts.

Low per-hour prices I want, but I really don't want to turn up and find a row of EV spaces full of EVs but nobody actually charging because they already have taken the 1kWh that they needed and are all full.
 

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Done.

Fenlander - petrol is charged by the litre, electricity needs to be charged by the kWh. It's the only way you can make a comparison of cost per mile - as a PHEV driver, I need to make that comparison to choose the best value fuel option. It also removes the perverse "double charging" of those of us who can only charge at 16Amps, but are charged the same as someone who can draw 32Amps from a Type2 post.
 

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Fenlander - petrol is charged by the litre, electricity needs to be charged by the kWh. It's the only way you can make a comparison of cost per mile - as a PHEV driver, I need to make that comparison to choose the best value fuel option. It also removes the perverse "double charging" of those of us who can only charge at 16Amps, but are charged the same as someone who can draw 32Amps from a Type2 post.
I disagree that electricity needs to be charged per kWh. The limited resource here (other than in MK) is the charging post, *not* the electricity it can supply. Any "fair" pricing scheme *must* account for the time blocking a post but not actively charging using it.

If we all started parking up at petrol stations for hours at a time, but not actually using the pump, I'm pretty sure things would change rapidly.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I disagree that electricity needs to be charged per kWh. The limited resource here (other than in MK) is the charging post, *not* the electricity it can supply. Any "fair" pricing scheme *must* account for the time blocking a post but not actively charging using it.

If we all started parking up at petrol stations for hours at a time, but not actually using the pump, I'm pretty sure things would change rapidly.
That's why I think free-parking for EVs is flawed. I don't have an issue with paying normal parking fees and then a per kWh price for the electricity.
 

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That's why I think free-parking for EVs is flawed. I don't have an issue with paying normal parking fees and then a per kWh price for the electricity.
It needs to be slightly more than a normal parking fee - you are occupying a space that is more in demand than a normal space, because it has a facility attached to it.

I don't think this needs to make EV charging "more expensive than petrol", but it can't just be per kWh.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
It needs to be slightly more than a normal parking fee - you are occupying a space that is more in demand than a normal space, because it has a facility attached to it.
Not in Milton Keynes they're not ;)
 

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The current usage for TfL chargers is very low even when they are free. I suspect usage will be close to zero once any form of fees are introduced for slow chargers (particularly if free parking is withdrawn in places like Westminster)
 

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Can't argue with that :) But we shouldn't demand pricing models elsewhere in the county based on a flawed experiment in a single city.
The very fact that the experiment in MK is flawed is precisely why we're asking for a different fee structure.
 

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Flipper - I don't disagree with you. Parking your vehicle and fueling your vehicle are 2 separate services, there's just the complexity with EVs that you have to keep your vehicle in one place for a while as it charges...

Fenlander - we've covered this topic extensively before, and we're going to have to agree to disagree. You're right that outside the bubble of MK and its 150ish posts the charging infrastructure is finite, and should not be hogged by people for ages when they don't need it. I think that can be enforced differently - e.g. a maximum stay of X hours in a space? I don't think there's one silver bullet for this though - I drove to Stanmore tube station at the weekend, where there were about 12 EV spaces and 6 double-headed chargers. They're clearly not expecting people to stand next to their vehicle for 3-4 hours whilst it recharges, they're expecting people to plug in, jump on a tube, and come back later. If I had to return after 4 hours, then that wouldn't have worked for my 8 hour day in London, so I'd just have parked in an ICE space, not recharged, and used petrol for the return journey - that's clearly not the intention.

But if you don't charge by kWh, then you end up with the perverse situation of 32Amp pricing when you only draw 16Amps, and you cannot compare the per-mile cost... plugging into a charging post becomes a price lottery, and will just drive PHEV drivers back to petrol. I can demonstrate that my petrol usage has increased noticeably since the Chargemaster pricing & charging policy came in, and that isn't progress.
 

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I still don't understand the concern over per kWh charging for slow posts.

Low per-hour prices I want, but I really don't want to turn up and find a row of EV spaces full of EVs but nobody actually charging because they already have taken the 1kWh that they needed and are all full.
Per hour needs to make a profit from the worst case scenario (a vehicle pulling down 22kw the whole time it's connected) which is a little unfair if I am then connected only pulling 3.3kw. Might not make a difference for a day trip, but if I am relying on infrastructure to charge every day as I don't have a garage/driveway at home it becomes non-viable.
 

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Can't argue with that :) But we shouldn't demand pricing models elsewhere in the county based on a flawed experiment in a single city.
Agreed we don't want the North East model ruined to comply with any national model trying to address traffic problems in the South. It isn't broken up here so don't try to fix it.
 

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Per hour needs to make a profit from the worst case scenario (a vehicle pulling down 22kw the whole time it's connected) which is a little unfair if I am then connected only pulling 3.3kw. Might not make a difference for a day trip, but if I am relying on infrastructure to charge every day as I don't have a garage/driveway at home it becomes non-viable.
You've hit the nail on the head, and if you look at Chargemaster's pricing, that's exactly what they've done. They've looked at the worst case for each charging session and then ensured they'll still be making a profit from each and every session. You can see how that happened, you can almost see their calculations... but what it's done is made the whole thing uneconomical for the vast majority of situations. Hence why the usage has dropped through the floor.

Pricing per kWh would fix that.
 
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