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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
.... I've had plenty of time to get to grips with the beast as it involved a 225 mile homewards trip from the dealer (extra goodies on an ex demo Allure version the reason for such a long trek). What a journey, though, with three stops en route to juice up and each public unit encounter an elongated near nightmare the details of which I'll spare you. Suffice to say that what should have been a six hour drive turned out to take ten.

Whilst I'm not unhappy to have nade the px, despite what follows, I confess to being less than ecstatic about the Pug. For a start, I averaged a mere 140 miles range and even allowing for long motorway stretches, which of course understandably eat into the range, I'm hugely disappointed at this discovery; also, the time taken to charge up the car, which is trumpeted as supposedly having a swift facility in this connection, proved to be a monstrous farce, not helped by a dashboard notice which despite a completed fill-up insisted that it would take a further fifteen minutes to do so; I couldn't find how to access a charge point locator on the screen, I suppose it's a question of experimenting to unearth its presence; as for the handling characteristics, granted it's basically a city vehicle but I must say a constant high speed proved just short of a tiring ordeal and I was mighty glad to finally park the somewhat unruly 'companion'; however, by far and away THE most annoying thing (aside from a designer whom I could shoot for the stupidity of making you consult the screen simply to change the cabin temperature, a safety award must surely be awaiting the bright spark culprit 'responsible' for such insanity along with the inclusion of that scatch magnet shiny console) is the immensely fiddly gear lever system with that surplus-to-need 'complicated' P' contraption that has to be employed every time you want to change etc. Grrrrrrrrr! M e g a irritating. But the car has has its bad points too.

I expect I'll settle down with it all eventually.

Meanwhile I've ordered mudflaps and the thing will shortly be fitted with protectors to guard against the brigade of careless door openers.
 

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If the search is as crap on the pug as the Corsa then you may have to search for Electric Vehicle Stations rather than chargers. It's not worth the bother. I use Zap-Map instead.

Range is nothing like WLTP.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
How right you are. On the Renault Zoe I traded in I could get 220 Mike's out of it, pretty near the claimed official figure. I'm appalled to hear your revelation about there apparently being no charge pont indicator, I thought all electric cars had this facility...
 

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Chargers are displayed on the main map so as you go along you can see them. There is a magnifying glass logo search function on the Corsa and I've used that to find instavolt ones. That's worth a go to see whether it's useful or not.

Also check what country it's searching in as some of the defaults are a bit stupid.
 

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…the immensely fiddly gear lever system with that surplus-to-need 'complicated' P' contraption that has to be employed every time you want to change etc. Grrrrrrrrr! M e g a irritating.
What on earth are you talking about here? It’s not a “gear” system. The only time you should be pressing the “P” button, which you don’t even need to do, is when “P”arking the car. As with any automatic transmission, all this does is engage a mechanical lock to the transmission to prevent the car rolling away should the parking brake not work or fail.

If you have even been touching the “P” button whilst in motion, you are at least saved the embarrassment of having your transmission/gear box departing the chassis thanks to the electronics that “realise” that you probably really didn’t mean to do that and ignores your selection.

Once you are in motion, you don’t ever have to touch the selector again unless you want to transition between D and B mode for added regen or for selecting R if you want to go backwards and then, that wil only engage once you are at a standstill, once again preventing the embarrassment mentioned above.

As I mentioned, you don’t even have to press anything on the selector if you just switch the car off, it will automatically engage “P” anyway. It’s not a “gear” stick as the transmission is single speed and as such there are no ”gears“ to change.

You also mention your ”high speed” motorway sectors. Your drag coefficient will increase as a square of your speed and so, a little extra speed will exponentially increase your drag and thus your efficiency. If driving at 65mph on the motorway gives you 3.6 miles/kWh, increasing to 70mph will reduce that efficiency to 3.3miles/kWh. That has reduced your rage by around 14 miles. Increase that to 75mph and you have reduced your range by 38 miles from 65mph. I haven’t even factored in driving conditions. Even a slight amount of water on the road surface will have an effect on efficiency as does wind.

Anyway, what were you basing your 140 mile range on? Hopefully not the GoM. At the minimum, you should be basing your range from a fully charged car by the consumption figure in miles/kWh. The GoM is notoriously bad at estimating usable range.

…also, the time taken to charge up the car, which is trumpeted as supposedly having a swift facility in this connection, proved to be a monstrous farce, not helped by a dashboard notice which despite a completed fill-up insisted that it would take a further fifteen minutes to do so;
Regarding your charging experience, were you attempting to fully charge to 100%? If so, were you using a DC rapid charge (CCS) or the AC (Type 2), not that it would make any difference to the extra time to top up to 100% either way?

I’m not sure what your experience is with EVs but a common mistake for first time users is to try and charge using the AC connector and not the CCS. The difference is that with AC you’ll only ever get a maximum of 7kW or 11kW (depending on your on-board charger) as opposed to a theoretical maximum of 100kW depending on the DC rapid charger you are using. Charging above ~85% is going to take as long to complete to 100% as it takes to go from 20% to 80% in most cases.

Once you achieve ~80% SoC you are far better off heading back on the road to your next charge than trying to completely “top up” to full. Other factors that will affect your charging speed are initial SoC and battery temperature.

That last 10%-15% of charge to 100% is usually done at home or on a destination charger as it is a slow process and the BMS has to balance the cells.

Anyway, enjoy your Pug as you head up the learning curve.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Chargers are displayed on the main map so as you go along you can see them. There is a magnifying glass logo search function on the Corsa and I've used that to find instavolt ones. That's worth a go to see whether it's useful or not.

Also check what country it's searching in as some of the defaults are a bit stupid.

Thank you for your insightful info. Appreciated.
What on earth are you talking about here? It’s not a “gear” system. The only time you should be pressing the “P” button, which you don’t even need to do, is when “P”arking the car. As with any automatic transmission, all this does is engage a mechanical lock to the transmission to prevent the car rolling away should the parking brake not work or fail.

If you have even been touching the “P” button whilst in motion, you are at least saved the embarrassment of having your transmission/gear box departing the chassis thanks to the electronics that “realise” that you probably really didn’t mean to do that and ignores your selection.

Once you are in motion, you don’t ever have to touch the selector again unless you want to transition between D and B mode for added regen or for selecting R if you want to go backwards and then, that wil only engage once you are at a standstill, once again preventing the embarrassment mentioned above.

As I mentioned, you don’t even have to press anything on the selector if you just switch the car off, it will automatically engage “P” anyway. It’s not a “gear” stick as the transmission is single speed and as such there are no ”gears“ to change.

You also mention your ”high speed” motorway sectors. Your drag coefficient will increase as a square of your speed and so, a little extra speed will exponentially increase your drag and thus your efficiency. If driving at 65mph on the motorway gives you 3.6 miles/kWh, increasing to 70mph will reduce that efficiency to 3.3miles/kWh. That has reduced your rage by around 14 miles. Increase that to 75mph and you have reduced your range by 38 miles from 65mph. I haven’t even factored in driving conditions. Even a slight amount of water on the road surface will have an effect on efficiency as does wind.

Anyway, what were you basing your 140 mile range on? Hopefully not the GoM. At the minimum, you should be basing your range from a fully charged car by the consumption figure in miles/kWh. The GoM is notoriously bad at estimating usable range.



Regarding your charging experience, were you attempting to fully charge to 100%? If so, were you using a DC rapid charge (CCS) or the AC (Type 2), not that it would make any difference to the extra time to top up to 100% either way?

I’m not sure what your experience is with EVs but a common mistake for first time users is to try and charge using the AC connector and not the CCS. The difference is that with AC you’ll only ever get a maximum of 7kW or 11kW (depending on your on-board charger) as opposed to a theoretical maximum of 100kW depending on the DC rapid charger you are using. Charging above ~85% is going to take as long to complete to 100% as it takes to go from 20% to 80% in most cases.

Once you achieve ~80% SoC you are far better off heading back on the road to your next charge than trying to completely “top up” to full. Other factors that will affect your charging speed are initial SoC and battery temperature.

That last 10%-15% of charge to 100% is usually done at home or on a destination charger as it is a slow process and the BMS has to balance the cells.

Anyway, enjoy your Pug as you head up the learning curve.

Phew! Thanks for your fulsome explanations, which I'll take time to reread severally so as to absorb all you've painstakingly taken the time to share. You really know the EV world. All I'll add at this juncture - every week I note similarly expressed feelings on divers other forums - is that living in a flat and therefore forced to only use public juicers, the UK network provision is beyond a damn disgrace, whoever the supplier. For example, not once, yes, not once, in the year I've been driving a BEV have I used a public charger without which there's unfailingly not been a problem of one sort or another. The other day I had to go to four units before I found one that even worked... Also, most maddening of all, on no occasion have I e v e r been able to use a contactless debit card (my relatively low annual mileage doesn't justify taking out membership cards) as one does in, say, a supermarket where the transaction is always simplicity itself and seems to take but a split-second. It's no eggageration to say that I find the whole out-on-the-street EV charging scenario just short of a xikrgtbhing NIGHTmare. In this 'connection', last Tuesday was t h e worst motoring experience I've e v e r encountered, infuriatingly delayed during each and every one of three times I had to stop and top-up in a 225 mile journey. The sole good news is that my therapist says I should recover quickly - until the next time the ordeal is inevitably repeated...
 

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Thank you for your insightful info. Appreciated.

Phew! Thanks for your fulsome explanations, which I'll take time to reread severally so as to absorb all you've painstakingly taken the time to share. You really know the EV world. All I'll add at this juncture - every week I note similarly expressed feelings on divers other forums - is that living in a flat and therefore forced to only use public juicers, the UK network provision is beyond a damn disgrace, whoever the supplier. For example, not once, yes, not once, in the year I've been driving a BEV have I used a public charger without which there's unfailingly not been a problem of one sort or another. The other day I had to go to four units before I found one that even worked... Also, most maddening of all, on no occasion have I e v e r been able to use a contactless debit card (my relatively low annual mileage doesn't justify taking out membership cards) as one does in, say, a supermarket where the transaction is always simplicity itself and seems to take but a split-second. It's no eggageration to say that I find the whole out-on-the-street EV charging scenario just short of a xikrgtbhing NIGHTmare. In this 'connection', last Tuesday was t h e worst motoring experience I've e v e r encountered, infuriatingly delayed during each and every one of three times I had to stop and top-up in a 225 mile journey. The sole good news is that my therapist says I should recover quickly - until the next time the ordeal is inevitably repeated...
Do debit cards ever work with public chargers? I thought only credit cards could be used. That may be one reason you've been experiencing problems with the charging network. Also, I don't quite understand why you had to stop and charge 3 times on your 225 mile journey when you think your range on a full charge is 14o miles.

I regularly make a trip from Suffolk to Liverpool which is 246 miles each way and I could do it with just one stop with a charge from 15% back up to 80% although physiological needs usually make it a 2 stop trip which suits me fine as I used to do in my ICE days. Maybe I'm just fortunate but I've never experienced major problems with the charging network when on long journeys, not even with the dreaded Ecotricity. I've had to try a couple of times to get a finicky charger to start the charge but apart from that, never had a charge fail after starting. I think I've only ever had to wait twice for a charger to become available. Then again, I don't have to worry about finding a destination charger as I have my own off-street parking in my garage where my PodPoint is located.

Maybe as part of your "therapy", you could elaborate on your nightmare charging experience when you drove your Pug back from the dealer.
 

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Debit cards should work on public chargers. It's the same contactless. The issue can be the bank wanting PIN verification every so often so it will fail until you go somewhere and do a Chip and Pin one.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Chargers are displayed on the main map so as you go along you can see them. There is a magnifying glass logo search function on the Corsa and I've used that to find instavolt ones. That's worth a go to see whether it's useful or not.

Also check what country it's searching in as some of the defaults are a bit stupid.

Thank you for your insightful info. Appreciated.
What on earth are you talking about here? It’s not a “gear” system. The only time you should be pressing the “P” button, which you don’t even need to do, is when “P”arking the car. As with any automatic transmission, all this does is engage a mechanical lock to the transmission to prevent the car rolling away should the parking brake not work or fail.

If you have even been touching the “P” button whilst in motion, you are at least saved the embarrassment of having your transmission/gear box departing the chassis thanks to the electronics that “realise” that you probably really didn’t mean to do that and ignores your selection.

Once you are in motion, you don’t ever have to touch the selector again unless you want to transition between D and B mode for added regen or for selecting R if you want to go backwards and then, that wil only engage once you are at a standstill, once again preventing the embarrassment mentioned above.

As I mentioned, you don’t even have to press anything on the selector if you just switch the car off, it will automatically engage “P” anyway. It’s not a “gear” stick as the transmission is single speed and as such there are no ”gears“ to change.

You also mention your ”high speed” motorway sectors. Your drag coefficient will increase as a square of your speed and so, a little extra speed will exponentially increase your drag and thus your efficiency. If driving at 65mph on the motorway gives you 3.6 miles/kWh, increasing to 70mph will reduce that efficiency to 3.3miles/kWh. That has reduced your rage by around 14 miles. Increase that to 75mph and you have reduced your range by 38 miles from 65mph. I haven’t even factored in driving conditions. Even a slight amount of water on the road surface will have an effect on efficiency as does wind.

Anyway, what were you basing your 140 mile range on? Hopefully not the GoM. At the minimum, you should be basing your range from a fully charged car by the consumption figure in miles/kWh. The GoM is notoriously bad at estimating usable range.



Regarding your charging experience, were you attempting to fully charge to 100%? If so, were you using a DC rapid charge (CCS) or the AC (Type 2), not that it would make any difference to the extra time to top up to 100% either way?

I’m not sure what your experience is with EVs but a common mistake for first time users is to try and charge using the AC connector and not the CCS. The difference is that with AC you’ll only ever get a maximum of 7kW or 11kW (depending on your on-board charger) as opposed to a theoretical maximum of 100kW depending on the DC rapid charger you are using. Charging above ~85% is going to take as long to complete to 100% as it takes to go from 20% to 80% in most cases.

Once you achieve ~80% SoC you are far better off heading back on the road to your next charge than trying to completely “top up” to full. Other factors that will affect your charging speed are initial SoC and battery temperature.

That last 10%-15% of charge to 100% is usually done at home or on a destination charger as it is a slow process and the BMS has to balance the cells.

Anyway, enjoy your Pug as you head up the learning curve.

Phew! Thanks for your fulsome explanations, which I'll take time to reread severally so as to absorb all you've painstakingly taken the time to share. You really know the EV world. All I'll add at this juncture - every week I note similarly expressed feelings on divers other forums - is that living in a flat and therefore forced to only use public juicers, the UK network provision is beyond a damn disgrace, whoever the supplier. For example, not once, yes, not once, in the year I've been driving a BEV have I used a public charger without which there's unfailingly not been a problem of one sort or another. The other day I had to go to four units before I found one that even worked... Also, most maddening of all, on no occasion have I e v e r been able to use a contactless debit card (my relatively low annual mileage doesn't justify taking out membership cards) as one does in, say, a supermarket where the transaction is always simplicity itself and seems to take but a split-second. It's no eggageration to say that I find the whole out-on-the-street EV charging scenario just short of a xikrgtbhing NIGHTmare. In this 'connection', last Tuesday was t h e worst motoring experience I've e v e r encountered, infuriatingly delayed during each and every one of three times I had to stop and top-up in a 225 mile journey. The sole good news is that my therapist says I should recover quickly - until the next time the ordeal is inevitably repeated...
Do debit cards ever work with public chargers? I thought only credit cards could be used. That may be one reason you've been experiencing problems with the charging network. Also, I don't quite understand why you had to stop and charge 3 times on your 225 mile journey when you think your range on a full charge is 14o miles.

I regularly make a trip from Suffolk to Liverpool which is 246 miles each way and I could do it with just one stop with a charge from 15% back up to 80% although physiological needs usually make it a 2 stop trip which suits me fine as I used to do in my ICE days. Maybe I'm just fortunate but I've never experienced major problems with the charging network when on long journeys, not even with the dreaded Ecotricity. I've had to try a couple of times to get a finicky charger to start the charge but apart from that, never had a charge fail after starting. I think I've only ever had to wait twice for a charger to become available. Then again, I don't have to worry about finding a destination charger as I have my own off-street parking in my garage where my PodPoint is located.

Maybe as part of your "therapy", you could elaborate on your nightmare charging experience when you drove your Pug back from the dealer.
All I can tell you is that as I beavered along the charge indicator on the dash seemed to shrink before my very eyes and when, as is my habit, it reaches the halfway point I juiced up. Repeat, I had to do that three times... I entirely agree with you in your condemnation of the utterly deplorable Ecotricity, my first and last use of THAT outfit. At one pont I came off the motorway to divert some ten miles to use a rival company to juice up.

On another subject. There's one company, especially with their just announced wonderful intention of coming to the UK next year, that in my opinion is metaphorically going to torpedo the ev market - and I don't think that's even a slight over-claim. Every other Western manufacturer beware and this very day fall awake. It's a company in which Warren Buffett - who surely knows a thing or four about money markets - has an eight percent stake, viz BYD which stands for Beyond Your Dreams, the monica presently emblazoned the full width of the boot, whatever one of their many models, and which will surely have to be ditched to truncate it to just the initials if they want to successfully get a toehold over here. Their EA1, I'm not sure but I suspect from seeing the pictures that its dimensions will approximate to the Zoe and e208, is in my perception instantly beautiful, using revolutionary blade technology for its batteries, undercutting competitors by about a third in price, a claimed range of 600 kilometers and able to provide 95 miles' range in apparently just 5 minutes... They're been making ev vehicles for a very long time with a high reputational foothold in many parts of the world, largely in ev trucks and busses but nonetheless numerous car models to offer too. I predict that, quite literally, an ev revolution is about to hit the British ev world.

I want one!
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thank you for your insightful info. Appreciated.



Phew! Thanks for your fulsome explanations, which I'll take time to reread severally so as to absorb all you've painstakingly taken the time to share. You really know the EV world. All I'll add at this juncture - every week I note similarly expressed feelings on divers other forums - is that living in a flat and therefore forced to only use public juicers, the UK network provision is beyond a damn disgrace, whoever the supplier. For example, not once, yes, not once, in the year I've been driving a BEV have I used a public charger without which there's unfailingly not been a problem of one sort or another. The other day I had to go to four units before I found one that even worked... Also, most maddening of all, on no occasion have I e v e r been able to use a contactless debit card (my relatively low annual mileage doesn't justify taking out membership cards) as one does in, say, a supermarket where the transaction is always simplicity itself and seems to take but a split-second. It's no eggageration to say that I find the whole out-on-the-street EV charging scenario just short of a xikrgtbhing NIGHTmare. In this 'connection', last Tuesday was t h e worst motoring experience I've e v e r encountered, infuriatingly delayed during each and every one of three times I had to stop and top-up in a 225 mile journey. The sole good news is that my therapist says I should recover quickly - until the next time the ordeal is inevitably repeated...


All I can tell you is that as I beavered along the charge indicator on the dash seemed to shrink before my very eyes and when, as is my habit, it reaches the halfway point I juiced up. Repeat, I had to do that three times... I entirely agree with you in your condemnation of the utterly deplorable Ecotricity, my first and last use of THAT outfit. At one pont I came off the motorway to divert some ten miles to use a rival company to juice up.

On another subject. There's one company, especially with their just announced wonderful intention of coming to the UK next year, that in my opinion is metaphorically going to torpedo the ev market - and I don't think that's even a slight over-claim. Every other Western manufacturer beware and this very day fall awake. It's a company in which Warren Buffett - who surely knows a thing or four about money markets - has an eight percent stake, viz BYD which stands for Beyond Your Dreams, the monica presently emblazoned the full width of the boot, whatever one of their many models, and which will surely have to be ditched to truncate it to just the initials if they want to successfully get a toehold over here. Their EA1, I'm not sure but I suspect from seeing the pictures that its dimensions will approximate to the Zoe and e208, is in my perception instantly beautiful, using revolutionary blade technology for its batteries, undercutting competitors by about a third in price, a claimed range of 600 kilometers and able to provide 95 miles' range in apparently just 5 minutes... They're been making ev vehicles for a very long time with a high reputational foothold in many parts of the world, largely in ev trucks and busses but nonetheless numerous car models to offer too. I predict that, quite literally, an ev revolution is about to hit the British ev world.

I want one!
Typo - I meant 'reached' the halfway point.
 

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All I can tell you is that as I beavered along the charge indicator on the dash seemed to shrink before my very eyes and when, as is my habit, it reaches the halfway point I juiced up. Repeat, I had to do that three times... I entirely agree with you in your condemnation of the utterly deplorable Ecotricity, my first and last use of THAT outfit. At one pont I came off the motorway to divert some ten miles to use a rival company to juice up.
Stopping to charge when you reach 50% is typical range anxiety that you should be able to wean yourself from. No wonder you had to stop so often.

You should eventually be able to gain confidence to let your charge indicator drop to ~10% or less before stopping to charge on a long journey. Maybe start by letting it drop to 20% which should leave you with ~30 miles range when on the motorway, usually enough to get to a plan B charge point if your plan A fails for whatever reason.

Personally, I don't condemn Ecotricity. As I mentioned, I've never had a problem with any of their chargers, even the tatty, decrepit looking ones. Maybe had to try a couple of times to initiate the charge but they've always eventually worked. Now that they're upgrading all their chargers, even better news.
 
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