Speak EV - Electric Car Forums banner

1 - 20 of 108 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
825 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I've been wondering this for a while, but with that new Nissan having CCS rather than Chademo the arguments are starting up in earnest again.

I regularly see folk saying that Chademo is a "better" charging standard than CCS. Not just that (historically?) it's more widely available, but that it's fundamentally better.

I know that some newer cars sometimes have issues with CCS on older rapids, but I understand that is primarily an issue with implementation or interpretation of the standards that can often be sorted by updated firmware in the rapid and/or car. Although in Tesla's case the design of the charge port also seems to be a contributing factor.

So, why is Chademo better than CCS as a standard?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,446 Posts
CHAdeMO is simpler than CCS so there is less to go wrong. I don't know if there is some benefit of CCS to the manufacturers but for the owner CHAdeMO seems to more reliable.
 

·
Zoe Devotee
Joined
·
9,259 Posts
Chademo is dead outside of Japan/China. EU is going CCS USA is going CCS (their type 1 version). There is no discussion, it happened already.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,312 Posts
This is an interesting 18-month-old summary of the situation not that long ago. The key point that struck me was that charging would be the ultimate decider. Whilst new hardware recognised the need to support both standards they were already favouring CCS in a subtle way by retaining 50Kw max for Chad and going towards 350Kw for CCS on dual-headed pumps. Then along came Ionity! Any car manufacturer that is paying attention would have to respond to the signals being given.

As in all previous standards battles, it's not always the best technical solution that wins.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
825 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Thanks @Hitstirrer, that's an interesting article.

I know that CCS is fast becoming the de facto standard most places outside Japan (and China), but was never entirely sure if it was only because of politics or if it's technically better. That was one of the reasons I didn't even consider a Leaf when I was in the market for an EV.

Is it safe to assume since I've yet to see anyone anywhere put forward a technical argument, beyond a passing "it's not necessarily the best technical solution that becomes the standard" type comment, that there is little in the nitty gritty of each standard that makes one clearly superior?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
825 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
Chademo is dead outside of Japan/China. EU is going CCS USA is going CCS (their type 1 version). There is no discussion, it happened already.
I know it's happening. I'd just like to know why. I'm curious like that!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
825 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
CHAdeMO is simpler than CCS so there is less to go wrong. I don't know if there is some benefit of CCS to the manufacturers but for the owner CHAdeMO seems to more reliable.
What makes it simpler? And more reliable for owners?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
950 Posts
Given that the communication protocol is the same for CCS and Chademo, the difference between the two comes down to the physical connector. CCS uses the same communication pins for type 2 and DC rapid charging. Chademo has it's own dedicated pins. CCS is a bit more idiot proof in that it's not possible to plug in a type 2 connector at the same time as the DC connector. It probably comes down to cost for the car manufacturer in the end.
 

·
Zoe Devotee
Joined
·
9,259 Posts
Maybe because there are 2 of their stations in Scotland with a 3rd being built in Glasgow.
If this is taking over the market there will be a looooong wait :)
Change has to begin somewhere. Your comment is somewhat head in the sand. All chargers used to have 1 DC Chademo and often had 1 AC 43. Now more and more units are rolled out with no AC at all, if your lucky some might have a socketed 22kW. How many Instalvolt chargers have rolled out in the last 3 years? Chademo is next to go.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,402 Posts
CCS is not well defined so different manufacturers have implemented it slightly differently leading to all these compatibility problems. Not and issue with Chademo. Also V2G is only on Chademo at the moment.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,312 Posts
I know it's happening. I'd just like to know why. I'm curious like that!
Until quite recently Chad had a large technical advantage as described in this quote from an on-line report.

"However, CHAdeMO does have one major technical advantage: it is a bi-directional charger.This means electricity can flow both from the charger into the car, but also the other way from the car into the charger, and then on to the house or grid.This allows so-called “Vehicle to Grid” energy flows, or V2G. If you have the right infrastructure, you could then power your house using electricity stored in the car’s battery. Alternatively, you can send car electricity off to the grid and be paid for it."

Much has been made over this advantage as there have been moves in the V2G direction and also home battery storage linked to solar. A large growth area in the EV field. It has always been cited as the definitive answer to why we must all demand that Chad wins the battle.

However, CCS has responded and says that bi-directional capability is being developed which could then overturn the claimed Chad advantage. On the other hand, Chad has certainly not thrown in the towel and that same article describes their fightback - which could lead to further turmoil in this saga.

Quote - "Interestingly, the Japanese-based CHAdeMO Association and the China Electricity Council (which controls GB/T) are working together on a new DC rapid system known as ChaoJi. In April 2020, they announced the final protocols called CHAdeMO 3.0. This will allow charging at over 500 kW (600 amps limit) and will also provide bidirectional charging. Considering China is the largest consumer of EVs, and that many regional countries are likely to join including possibly India, the CHAdeMO 3.0 / ChaoJi initiative may well dethrone CCS over time as the dominant force in charging."

So it seems that in mundane terms of user safety and ease of use then both systems in normal day to day use have no clear advantage. Possibly Chad is a bit more cumbersome and clumsy but that's it. What seems to be the battleground is in ancillary use and not strictly day to day charging on road trips.
 

·
Registered
Ioniq
Joined
·
698 Posts
Given that the communication protocol is the same for CCS and Chademo
Are you sure? Chademo uses CAN bus signalling over separate channels, but CCS uses some other ISO standard or other overlaid on top of the AC charging signal channel.

I wonder whether this has been the cause of some of the CCS problems so far in that CAN bus has been around a while and cars already use it for other things whereas CCS is a new protocol subject to more implementation specific "foibles".
 

·
Zoe Devotee
Joined
·
9,259 Posts
Isn't china 18% of the world's population? Plent of room for expansion there.
Ok off you go to live in China to win an argument. :ROFLMAO:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Chris Paulin
1 - 20 of 108 Posts
Top