[Paul]

Almost afraid to ask this on an EV forum, but I'm going to anyway.

Electric car owners seem very dismissive of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, and I hear the reasons why loud and clear. However, surely they are no threat to EVs? Or are they?

Is it just they compete for government grants? Is is that they may be an "easier sell" to consumers, thereby wiping out EVs? Is it an evangelical thing?

Or are they really no threat at all?

 

[Matt Beard]

Hydrogen is a huge threat to EVs - not because it is in any way better (it is so much worse in so many ways) but because it is backed by huge corporations with more money than you or I could imagine, and very low moral standards.

 

[Darren Griffin]

I too just don't get it. The investment required to roll out a network of hydrogen filling stations is immense and will take years. And, as I understand it, making hydrogen is highly inefficient compared to just using electricity in a battery.

And where does all the hydrogen currently come from? Oh yes, natural gas! Yes it can be manufactured from solar energy but with even greater trade off in efficiency and lost potential.

But, as Matt says, it continues to make the news as its backed by oil companies who see it as their best chance of maintaining a business when the oil runs out.

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Hydrogen is a huge threat to EVs - not because it is in any way better (it is so much worse in so many ways) but because it is backed by huge corporations with more money than you or I could imagine, and very low moral standards.

I completely agree... Hydrogen investment will be mandated by the EU clean fuels directive and companies like Toyota are not stupid.

 

[Paul_Moxhay]

I agree... and it isn't just because of the corporations support for H2... there is huge public support no doubt based on the propaganda put about by those corporations and bolstered by the likes of Top Gear etc which we know is supported by some of those corporations. They also advise governments so it is no surprise then that it gets huge support from governments.

 

[Paul_Moxhay]

You have probably seen this before but in case you haven't...

 

[LK13]

The chart above is based on todays technology. What if someone found a way to generate hydrogen from water within the vehicle?

 

[Paul_Moxhay]

I am afraid that the laws of physics is what hydrogen is up against. It takes a lot of energy to split water to create hydrogen. That is just how it is and this is something that everyone chooses to ignore.

Someone might develop a way to split water to generate hydrogen in the car but it will always be less efficient than using electricity especially if a good percentage of that electricity is from renewables.

 

[Matt Beard]

The chart above is based on todays technology. What if someone found a way to generate hydrogen from water within the vehicle?

Basically speaking, the total energy in a molecule of H2O (water) is less than that in 2 molecules of hydrogen plus one of oxygen. Electrolysis adds energy that allows the state to change to separate hydrogen and oxygen molecules. A fuel cell effectively puts the separate molecules back together into the lower energy state, leaving left-over energy. Because neither conversion is 100% efficient you can never get more energy left over than was put in to split the H2O. Splitting H2O in a car will always lose you energy rather than gain it, unless you can change the laws of physics.

 

[knoxie]

There is no doubt about the fact that the oil industry is running scared, they are having to drill deeper and deeper in more remote places to extract this rapidly depleting resource and it is they who have over the years scuppered the development of the wonder battery and its associated developments by suppressing research and buying out patents and tech before they can flourish, I wouldn’t be surprised if they have done worse akin to the tactics of the underworld, this has certainly happened in the chemical industry, ever wondered why there are no drugs to cure certain ailments but there are some very expensive ones that will keep you alive if you take them?

This is no difference IMHO there are forces at work, call it 3rd world government if you like, the world is a plutocracy not a democracy where the power elite call the shots with the politicians just being the public face for what the organisation globally wants to achieve, I am not a religious person but I strongly believe there is such a thing as pure evil and it is this that is at the heart of what is going on globally.

Folks are right if they want the future to be Hydrogen it will be, we have little choice, we can fight against it as much as we like but there are massive forces at play here, I sincerely hope there will always be cars on the road powered off solar or wind but the man is going to have to get his dollar from you for it, whether its via taxation, sky high commodity pricing in the raw materials such as lithium etc.

Gloomy old stuff, we like to think we are free, we are free to do exactly what our government tells us to do! I actually despair and worry for the future, any government that can allow fracking to smash, drown and pollute the ground and the water we drink will take some stopping, Rage against the machine said it the best!! “WE GOTTA TAKE THE POWER BACK!”

Here’s Paul with the weather! “ Mostly windy and rainy continuing the wettest December on record”

 

[Paul]

For @knoxie and anyone else who just read his post, here's some emergency kittens, I think we might need them...

 

[knoxie]

Ha ha brilliant! I have my conspiracy head on today, I think its the weather and the time of the year!

 

[AndyG]

The latest news on the car pages of Yahoo.

http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/news/toyota-push-ahead-hydrogen-power-130500598.html

Why make Hydrogen when it takes more energy to make than is used to push a car along?

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Hyundai On Hydrogen Fuel-Cell Vehicles

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1089569_hyundai-on-hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles-critiquing-its-claims

 

[Matt Beard]

Here's an interesting thought...

EVs get criticized over what happens if you actually run out of power. In a petrol or diesel car you need a small plastic can of fuel to get you going again, but with an EV you need access to a power socket. These are all over the place, but if you are more that 50 feet from one that you can use, you have problems. There are various devices available that will give a small "fast charge" from batteries, but they are not common. A decent quality generator will allow slow charging, or a recovery truck could have an inverter to give a trickle-charge, perhaps at 110V. Not ideal, but I can see solutions are available. Now, what happens if you run out of hydrogen?

 

[Kevin Sharpe]

Now, what happens if you run out of hydrogen?

Maybe they could add a battery?

 

[dpeilow]

Yeah but if you have hydrogen REx then it makes even less sense to build all that new infrastructure for the 10% of miles you are running in REx mode.

Hydrogen cars have small batteries any way. Just a hill climbing and acceleration buffer. The rest of the space is taken up by the reinforced 10,000 psi tanks.