Is it all downhill from here?

5218 Views 64 Replies 26 Participants Last post by RickMGoldie, Sep 14, 2014

Brooktop

Discussion Starter · Sep 3, 2014

Just wondering if is this the best year to be an EV owner?

Let's face it, we are being subsidised at the moment:

Government grant for car and wall charger
Plenty of free charging eg ecotricity
Relatively low cost of electricity v liquid fuels

As demand increases, all three are going to disappear or be eroded. The infrastructure won't be able to cope resulting in much longer waits for a charger.

With the growth of PHEVs, this will hasten the 'tipping point'. Are vehicles with fast charge capability like the Outlander and BMW i3 Rex having the best of both worlds and spoiling it for purists? After all they don't RELY on a charge; they're just benefitting from a freebie at the moment.

Or will improving technology and falling costs outweigh the disadvantages?

As Mrs Merton would say, "Let's have a heated debate..."

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Olivier

· #2 · Sep 3, 2014

The Grants will surely go but that should be outweighed by lower costs for batteries. Note that diesels were (still are ?) more expensive to buy than their petrol equivalent but still became common place on their own merits.

Wall chargers are an upfront one. The price should go down but it gives you access to domestic electricity prices, so people will bite the bullet to get the saving. Same applies to solar PVs.

Free public charging won't survive rising popularity but until it is more viable to own an EV without access to a home charging point, it will have limited impact.

The real threat for me is that a transportation tax (grid upgrade cost would be a perfect excuse) is applied to home charging Kwh....

It would leave EVs to convince buyers on their technical merits alone. It will happen but will surely be much slower.

Steven Barrett

· #3 · Sep 3, 2014

Ecotricity say they have no plans to bill for charging - ever. Batteries will improve so by 2016 they will run longer, a trip of 200 miles will mean only one charge required at the distant end, maybe your relatives power point so not so much of an issue waiting for a charge at the services plus more stations will have chargers. We are the pioneers though so live the dream until the Govt make it into their usual nightmare as they did with diesel cars but as they say before we can make chicken soup we need to catch a chicken so lets first get more EV's on the road then argue the toss about costs but one thing is for sure it will be a cold day in hell when I meekly go back to driving an ICEr as my main motor !!

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Paul

· #4 · Sep 3, 2014

Steven Barrett said:
Ecotricity say they have no plans to bill for charging - ever.

I'm afraid that's wrong, they plan to introduce fees (they haven't said what or how exactly). It's been mooted I'm sure it could start as early as next year.

As for it being downhill from here, isn't going downhill perfect for EVs?

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Julian Thomas

· #5 · Sep 3, 2014

And BIK rates increase steeply over the next few years... I'm still waiting to see what 2019 & 2020 looks like, as that will be the deciding factor when I renew my lease in 2016:

5% 2014/15
5% 2015/16
7% 2016/17
9% 2017/18
13% 2018/19

Essentially this means that my Ampera costs me £63/month at the moment, and would cost £165/month in 2018 (in company car tax). I know they need to recoup the growing loss of tax take as more of us go for EV/PHEV, but I do worry it's going to dampen demand...

Dennis

· #6 · Sep 3, 2014

I saw the thread title and thought that the discussion was about an EV ideal drive (all downhill with regen helping the charge...)

As for incentives and the like. You can observe the happenings in other parts of the globe... In California, for example, the $2,500 state rebates are now being modified to have income limits and the like AND are now adding in an incentive for lower income families to trade in their gas guzzlers for even MORE credit.

As for EV charging station credits. People in the UK are blessed with higher voltage than North America. Therefore, even your "dumb" outlets can put out more power than North Americans. Before Kevin Sharpe and his team were threatened by folks for recommending the DIY solution (that was brilliant, by the way) those methods seemed to be more economical than even the ones that were installed "via Grant." In the US, for example, the charging station grant expired last year and there is no abatement for adoption here and the rate is increasing.

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John2

· #7 · Sep 3, 2014

If you buy a Leaf at, say, £26,000 this is after the £5,000 "grant" but then there is the VAT of £6,200 so the gov is still making money on the deal. On a Tesla the VAT would almost cover the cost of a Zoe! Plus the Leaf is built in the UK so there are taxes being paid by people employed by Nissan in the UK etc etc.
Plus there is 20% VAT on electricity at work, or 5% at home, providing a return to the government for the cost of the charging station.
You buy a coffee from Costa/Starbucks at the services when you are fast charging - more VAT for the gov!
I am not ungrateful for the government support, I really appreciate it, but I think perhaps they are not as generous with their money as it initially seems.

Reactions: 2

Steven Barrett

· #8 · Sep 3, 2014

I'm surprised Ecotricity are thinking of billing for charging as that's not what they told me ...I will have to check my emails now. We use ecotricity at home as well to take advantage of the 1000 hours free charging (equiv discount) and I suggested to eco that they don't bill their home users when out and about using the 1000 hours free charging as part of the deal when on the road, that's when I was told they have 'no plans' to bill ! Maybe I misunderstood but I'm a Yorkshireman so I don't think I would misunderstand anything to do with money, especially mine !

Reactions: 3

Paul

· #9 · Sep 3, 2014

It's been said a few times, most recent I've seen was also on here and twitter:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/504897204239466496

Wowbagger

· #10 · Sep 3, 2014

My understanding is that Ecotricity reserve the right to charge for charging from 1/1/2015. That's not to say that they are definitely going to start charging then.

GBEV

· #11 · Sep 3, 2014 (Edited)

Steven Barrett said:
We are the pioneers though so live the dream until the Govt make it into their usual nightmare as they did with diesel cars but as they say before we can make chicken soup we need to catch a chicken so lets first get more EV's on the road then argue the toss about costs but one thing is for sure it will be a cold day in hell when I meekly go back to driving an ICEr as my main motor !!

Yes I see the current UK government's initiatives more like trying to make an omelette.
Sure they have broken some eggs but so far have failed to get them even in the pan

.

It has taken 3 private companies with national coverage to do it. Ecotricity, Service station providers Welcome Break & Moto and Nissan/Renault EV car producers providing the rapid chargers.

Any truly national project like this requires is outside the competence of a government with such a narrow ideology.

Scatter gun approach of tax payer cash to councils who know nothing without any guidance is an abject failure as we all know only too well with multiple half baked providers, multiple RFID cards and different pricing, equipment and parking charges even within each provider's offerings.

Oh you want to travel out of your region in your electric car....wait two weeks for a fuel access card.

Omnii shambles and terrible waste of resources all in the name of the (false) competition mantra ideology.

The only ones laughing are Chargemaster all the way to the bank with ex tory treasurer widely reported as an invester.

Shame on the lot of them. They deserve to be exposed IMHO. Thankfully many Speak EV members have a voice and are not afraid to use it.

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Reactions: 2

Brooktop

Discussion Starter · #12 · Sep 3, 2014

Yep ecotricity are going to charge soon. Think the boss says so in this video

.

Of course it would be a shrewd marketing move to continue to give domestic customers free ev charging.

Reactions: 1

Brooktop

Discussion Starter · #13 · Sep 3, 2014

In January :-(. 6m 40s.

GBEV

· #14 · Sep 3, 2014

Nissan chargers are free in the US as I understand it. That might still happen here.

Dennis

· #15 · Sep 3, 2014

The Nissan US "No Charge to Charge" program is for two years for newly purchased Nissans. Earlier purchasers do not get the benefit.

GBEV

· #16 · Sep 3, 2014

Dennis said:
The Nissan US "No Charge to Charge" program is for two years for newly purchased Nissans. Earlier purchasers do not get the benefit.

Not sure why they would penalise early adopters that way who were already hit the most by resale values but thanks for the info Denis.

Dennis

· #17 · Sep 3, 2014

GBEV said:
Not sure why they would penalise early adopters that way who were already hit the most by resale values but thanks for the info Denis.

Yup. I was disappointed as well... My mother drives a 2013 Leaf... (then again, she's only used a rapid ONCE (I was training her) and charges most of the time either at her home or my home (when she visits).

Geoff

· #18 · Sep 3, 2014

The downhill started in 2013. It is time that the government backed up their initial incentives.

richardglover

· #19 · Sep 4, 2014

If you have recently “discovered” driving electric this would seem a strange thread and I have taken to saying to myself, it’s early days yet.
My interest started early 2011, for many ev drivers it was far earlier. Tesla’s and Nissan’s commitment I don’t feel has been matched by other manufacturers where driving 100% electric is concerned and I wonder if they are disappointed with their rivals efforts.
I still feel that the tipping point will be when the public simply get the vehicles they want at the right price.
If they are "what they want at the right price" they will put up with all the rest and all that will somehow sort itself out.
Meanwhile to early adopters it will seem as if it is going down hill.

Paul

· #20 · Sep 4, 2014

The traffic here only suggests it's getting bigger and more exciting all the time. I know that includes PHEVs and such, but still it's a growth area and will only go from strength-to-strength with the likes of VW, BMW and Tesla bringing more models to the table. And let's not under estimate the impact Nissan, Renault and Mitsubishi in particular are having "in the real world" too. Things look good to me. Not as good as they could be, but good all the same.

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