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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
After watching The new fully charged show Hinckley point c oh deary me which can be seen here 2 days early if you support the show through patreon at $5 per month I thought I'd do some man math and here's what I came up with..

In the UK in 2014 we used an average of 34.42GW per day, to produce this with household solar. An average solar installation of 4kw will produce and average of 9.4kw per day, so we would need 3,661,703 houses to be fitted with solar panels this would cost on average £6000 per house hold so a cost of £21.97 Billion on top of this we need to store some of the energy for the nightly usage I couldn’t find figures on this so I guessed 40% of the 34.42GW daily so 13.73GW or 13,730,000 kw. This should leave enough for peak demand to be covered. To store this energy using a tesla power wall the most expensive form of storage as large scale would work out cheaper per kwh this would need a total of 1,961,429 7kw power walls. At a cost of £3000 each would work out to £5.83 billion

Not saying this should be paid for by government, but if the investors who are spending billions said we will put this power wall and solar installation on your house and maintain it for free for the house holds who say yes to having them fitted.

This seems like a good deal for everyone apart from the people involved in the fossil fuel industry who I suggest retrain in solar and power wall installations industry

Total cost of power per kw hour would be £33.67 billon/20 years average life including 1 power wall change after 10 years Total energy produced in 20 years 251,266GW 33.67/251,266GW= £134,001 per GW £134,001/1,000,000kw = 13.4p per kw so if they want to profit at say 20% then they would need to charge around 18p per kwh including 5% vat

A national grid charge would also need to be added as I haven't calculated this in the costs. 18p per kwh is the cost of green energy not including all the subsidies we already pay to fossil and the cost of storing nuclear waste.

So for a totally solar country we would need

3,661,703 4kw solar house systems @ £6000 ea total £21.97 billion

1,961,429 7KW power walls @£3000ea total £5.85billion these would need changing every ten years

Total cost of solar UK £33.67 billion only £5billion more than hinkley point c if it goes £10 billion over budget like its sister plants on the continent

Figures rounded up to nearest thousand or million

Links to info I used

No of GW’s consumed in the UK daily

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_in_the_United_Kingdom

Average production of a 4kw solar system per day

solarselections.co.uk/blog/4kw-solar-systems-price-output-returns-uk

Number of UK households

google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=how%20many%20households%20in%20the%20uk

Units

1GW = 1,000,000 KW
 

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The flaw is assuming the average of 9.4kwh per day is constant throughout the year. The storage would need to be much larger to last through 4 or 5 winter months when the solar energy production would be much lower than the overall average.
 

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The flaw is assuming the average of 9.4kwh per day is constant throughout the year. The storage would need to be much larger to last through 4 or 5 winter months when the solar energy production would be much lower than the overall average.
But wouldn't Wind potentially make up the gap in the winter months, it certainly has been pretty windy round here this winter!

J
 

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Discussion Starter #4
The flaw is assuming the average of 9.4kwh per day is constant throughout the year. The storage would need to be much larger to last through 4 or 5 winter months when the solar energy production would be much lower than the overall average.
I see your point but how much lower say for example 1/3 so it would need an additional 13 billion on top but we could keep the nuclear and wind plants plus the existing solar to compensate for the difference
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I see your point but how much lower say for example 1/3 so it would need an additional 13 billion on top but we could keep the nuclear and wind plants plus the existing solar to compensate for the difference
Still 46 billion seems like a bargain when hinckley point c is going to cost £18 billion + and only produces 3gw per day
 

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So £50 Billion then. Isn't that the expected cost of the HS2 project? I think the country going completely renewable is a much better way to spend £50B than reducing the travelling time between London and Birmingham by an hour...
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Would Economy 7 cost more because it would have to come from stored energy and not surplus production ?
yes in this system their would be a flat rate of around 18p kwh and a charge for the grid as this isn't coasted into my figures. however the money saved from not having to treat pollution related health problems could be used to subsidise this. and the household's who opt to have them fitted could be given free electricity in return for the use of their roof space, the poorest households should have first refusal on installation.
Also if we were to install 3 million plus solar systems on houses then the costs would decrease over time.
I think enough domestic solar should be installed at a rate which matches the decommission of fossil based generation to reduce further the cost's involved
 

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Discussion Starter #10
In theory, economy 7 would be flipped into the hours of peak solar and you'd probably want summer and winter rates if you were heavily biased toward solar
The reason I went for solar is because their are around 27 million roof tops in the UK and only 3 million plus are needed so the roofs which offer the best efficiency should be chosen. and it would mean less damage to the environment as it's cheaper to build them on existing roof tops and utilising the current grid set-up.
Plus it will stop already rich land owners getting even richer and give back the money to the poor in the form of free electricity.
The UK will still have the existing wind solar and (nuclear for time being) to plug gaps in demand.
 

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Your "man maths" fell apart almost at the start. Ignoring the impracticalities, the number 34.42GW is the average power requirement for the UK. A 4kWp solar system would average 9.4 kWh per day. There are 24h in a day so the average power output is about 0.391kW. So if you could just work off averages you'd need 88 million 4kWp systems not 3.7 million...
 

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Discussion Starter #13
9.4 kw per day in sun shine hours not at night this is the average amount a 4kw system would produce during sun shine hours I got this info from the link provided in my description which is an average over a year so not just in the summer months the excess energy would be stored in battery packs for use when the solar grid is no longer producing
 

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Funny you should bring this up, radio4 had a program (or part of a program) about this very thing a few weeks ago and it was typical out of touch BBC EV bashing.

The 'expert' was going on about those old pumping stations for storing electricity and speaking about how pointless it was and didn't work etc. he spoke as if things like the power wall were in the distant future and not viable.

I am pretty sure at least a significant amount of our power generation could be done as you explain. But it won't because the people who sign it off are so out of touch with current tech we need a younger government.

Depressed me. 200 years ago the UK was all about pushing things like this and making the impossible possible. Now that's all left to places like China. :(
 

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Think the kw and kWh is causing issue here. The problem is solar can go days during winter months producing very little and wind can also be low simultaneously. The only green way round this is to over egg the solar and wind and produce some hydrogen or synthetic natural gas which can be stored during summer or times of excess generation and used when needed. On top of electrical demand is gas for heating. Peak electricity demand varies between 20-50GW but peak gas demand (heating and HW and industry) varies between 50-350GW. Electricity is a drop in the ocean compared the the heating energy demand. I would suggest massive insulation of all buildings is required as a starter and then vast amounts of renewables to over generate during summer to store gas for winter months. It is a tall mountain we have to climb which unfortunately will not be solved with £33 billion. The Hinkley money should go on the tidal schemes if you ask me but they are even more expensive per kWh than Hinkley C.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I thought my math may be wrong so here it is in the UK we get an average of 4383 Hours of daylight a year so a 4kwp system would generate 9.4kwh per day 3431kwh per year devide 3431/4383 = 0.78kw per system so to get 34,000,000kw or 34gw we would need 34,000,000 / 0.78 =43,589,743 solar systems at £6000 each would be £261,538,461,538 or £262 Billion
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I thought my math may be wrong so here it is in the UK we get an average of 4383 Hours of daylight a year so a 4kwp system would generate 9.4kwh per day 3431kwh per year devide 3431/4383 = 0.78kw per system so to get 34,000,000kw or 34gw we would need 34,000,000 / 0.78 =43,589,743 solar systems at £6000 each would be £261,538,461,538 or £262 Billion
This still doesn't allow for the battery storage and grid modifications. Or the times of day when solar wouldn't be producing enough to cover demand u would need extra batteries to soak up the peak output of the panels. @Edd Beesley was right off peak would be during the day as that's when they would have the excess power
 

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I thought my math may be wrong so here it is in the UK we get an average of 4383 Hours of daylight a year so a 4kwp system would generate 9.4kwh per day 3431kwh per year devide 3431/4383 = 0.78kw per system so to get 34,000,000kw or 34gw we would need 34,000,000 / 0.78 =43,589,743 solar systems at £6000 each would be £261,538,461,538 or £262 Billion
Why are you only looking at daylight hours? Will everything turn off at night.... As I said previously you'd need around 88 million systems. And that is before you start worrying about the seasonal balance e.t.c.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Why are you only looking at daylight hours? Will everything turn off at night.... As I said previously you'd need around 88 million systems. And that is before you start worrying about the seasonal balance e.t.c.
Ah now I see I forgot to allow for the batteries to store the power hence my figure is half the 88 million so yes double that again now the kwh unit price is insane
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I think the kwh price would be £1.40kWh plus profit and grid and maintenance so about £2kwh
 
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