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British cars, and some European ones in particular, were no better. But the Japanese resolved the issues much quicker. Now the most successful UK car factories are Japanese owned - Nissan, Toyota and until recently Honda.
You've missed my point. Japan started out copying Western cars, and before that motorcycles, badly. They quickly improved, as you say. One attribute that China shares with Japan is an ability to very rapidly learn to do things better. We've seen many, many examples of this, so although China may not be making world-beating cars now, in terms of quality that we may be used to, they will learn very quickly from the designs being manufactured in China by Western manufacturers, and will undoubtedly be up with the best much quicker than some might give them credit for.
 

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You've missed my point. Japan started out copying Western cars, and before that motorcycles, badly. They quickly improved, as you say. One attribute that China shares with Japan is an ability to very rapidly learn to do things better. We've seen many, many examples of this, so although China may not be making world-beating cars now, in terms of quality that we may be used to, they will learn very quickly from the designs being manufactured in China by Western manufacturers, and will undoubtedly be up with the best much quicker than some might give them credit for.
And, in the case of BYD, they can employ a European designer to get a design that will appeal to a Western audience. Just like the UK companies historically used Italian designers when we actually made and exported lots of cars ourselves.
 

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Japan in the 1970’s was like Japan in the 1970’s. China in 2020 is like China in 2020.

the world - let alone both countries is in a very different place technologically and culturally than it was then. Most notably the movement of ideas, information and people is exponentially greater than it was then.
 

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As much as I respect Tesla and Elon, I think that is a bit of an exaggeration. 5 years is an awful lot, never mind 10. I think Lucid are about to beat the Model S, Rivian is way ahead of Cybertruck as far as availability goes and the Ioniq 5 / EV6 are setting the new standards for charge rates and value for money. Personally, if I had the money, I would not go for a M3 / MY but would opt for the EV6.

Tesla have their Supercharger network as a USP. As for other things, I am not so sure. And I am just now realizing I am contributing to derailing a thread... apologies.
Might not "appear" that way, but watch Munro's YouTube series on the ID4 teardown, and this VW vs Ford vs Tesla video , and you then understand why it takes VW 3 x as long to make an ID4 than it does Tesla to make and Model Y. And the Berlin Gigafactory is just about to speed up Model Y and Model 3 production again using front and rear "Gigacastings" .

 

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Japan in the 1970’s was like Japan in the 1970’s. China in 2020 is like China in 2020.

the world - let alone both countries is in a very different place technologically and culturally than it was then. Most notably the movement of ideas, information and people is exponentially greater than it was then.
No, it is a fair comparison. Japanese car makers in the 1970s were a long way behind European and US car makers. But they caught up fast by adopting a continuous improvement mindset. China 10 years ago was a long way behind Japan, Europe and the US. But they're catching up at a rate that makes Japan in the 70s seem cautious and sluggish.

I recall maybe 15 years ago that China took cars from around the world and made lookalikes. The Smart ForTwo was very similar. The Vauxhall Fronterra (yes!) was almost indistinguishable. GM was going to sue about the copy of the Fronterra, until the got hold of one and took it apart. All the strengthening parts had been removed. The thing looked the same but would collapse like and empty coke can in a crash. They decided there was no economic threat so nothing to be gained by suing.

Now the Chinese can design and build cars that are equal to the bottom rank of other countries cars. 5 years from now, their new designs will be a match for Toyota or VW. 10 years from now, well the west had better buck their idea up.
 

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Might not "appear" that way, but watch Munro's YouTube series on the ID4 teardown, and this VW vs Ford vs Tesla video , and you then understand why it takes VW 3 x as long to make an ID4 than it does Tesla to make and Model Y. And the Berlin Gigafactory is just about to speed up Model Y and Model 3 production again using front and rear "Gigacastings" .

Does anyone know how you repair a crash damaged car if the gigacasting is broken?

Is this a triumph of production engineering over repairability?
 

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Does anyone know how you repair a crash damaged car if the gigacasting is broken?

Is this a triumph of production engineering over repairability?
Indeed, welcome to the era of the truly disposable car.
 

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Does anyone know how you repair a crash damaged car if the gigacasting is broken?

Is this a triumph of production engineering over repairability?
Good question,

Have a look at Mundro's earlier video on the megacasting (bad enough word, but where did gigacasting come from?) in the Model Y. Starting at about 2 minutes:


There are two members to the rear of the casting that simply bolt to it, possibly making repair to the rear of the casting easier, rather than harder, compared to a fully welded sheet structure. These might be deformable or have shear bolts. If so, these may make potential damage to the castings less likely than damage to the same area on the traditional sheet structure on a Model 3. But by the time either of them are damaged and need repair its almost certain that the body shell will be a write off.
 

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We own a 2020 ID.3 and a 2021 Tesla M3 LR, the latter doesn’t feel 5 years ahead of the former, never mind 10…
Thats interesting, as not many people own both brands

I'm literally about to buy an ID3, (the Life, 58KWH battery, 200hp motor version with upgraded alloys). In its own right, I think the M3 is the better car. The question then becomes, at £41k for M3, and £26.5k for the ID3 - is it worth more than 50% extra cost? (£14.5k)

There is no right or wrong answer to this question - its all about opinion. No doubt the Tesla would be great fun - class leading acceleration for example. I personally think the VW has hit the sweet spot on bang for buck.

But otherwise, it doesn't really feel like Tesla is miles ahead - there are some things they are ahead on (performance for example), some things they are behind on (occupant safety for example)
 

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I've owned a BMW i3, a Model 3 LR and now an I-Pace. The Model 3 wasn't as well-finished a car as my old Prius PHEV, by a long way, with what I thought to be an unacceptable level of road noise, and especially wind noise at anything over about 50mph. Even the little i3 was quieter and more civilised on rough surfaces than the Model 3. The Model 3 never failed to make me grin, though, even if that was only from using the acceleration.

It was an OK car, but not a £50k+ car in terms of fit, finish, noise, comfort, etc. What you're really paying for with the Model 3 is the technology, and there's no doubt that Tesla have things like the app and connectivity put together well, far better than either the I-Pace or my wife's Zoe. I remain unconvinced that using a touch screen for pretty much everything, including turning the wipers on and off, is a step forward, but the touch screen interface is pretty slick, significantly better than the interface in either the I-Pace or the Zoe, and massively better than the click wheel affair in the i3. The main snag I found, as a right handed person, is that it's not that easy to use when also trying to drive around winding lanes at night.

I'm not convinced that Tesla is significantly ahead overall. They are with things like the battery and drive train, and some of the other technology, but there's no doubt that some of the other big manufacturers are better at actually putting cars together.
 

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No, it is a fair comparison. Japanese car makers in the 1970s were a long way behind European and US car makers. But they caught up fast by adopting a continuous improvement mindset. China 10 years ago was a long way behind Japan, Europe and the US. But they're catching up at a rate that makes Japan in the 70s seem cautious and sluggish.

I recall maybe 15 years ago that China took cars from around the world and made lookalikes. The Smart ForTwo was very similar. The Vauxhall Fronterra (yes!) was almost indistinguishable. GM was going to sue about the copy of the Fronterra, until the got hold of one and took it apart. All the strengthening parts had been removed. The thing looked the same but would collapse like and empty coke can in a crash. They decided there was no economic threat so nothing to be gained by suing.

Now the Chinese can design and build cars that are equal to the bottom rank of other countries cars. 5 years from now, their new designs will be a match for Toyota or VW. 10 years from now, well the west had better buck their idea up.
Your conclusions seem based on a series of observations about how cars have been copied... My point was about some bigger issues underlying this:

Rhetorically - in the 1970's could you laser scan a component in the UK, email the file to your suppliers in China and have an exact copy fabricated a few hours later? Could 1970's Japan have cloned a set of apple airpods and churned out thousands of fully working copies within a week? 'Catching up' in the 1970's was a far more laborious and difficult process. Culturally (my other point) the world was a far more closed place and people and ideas flowed less readily around the world. Simply our 2020's world is far smaller than 1970 world!
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
I think that the disruption will come from a squeeze on pricing. China will soon be able to flood our markets with perfectly acceptable EVs both in range and included toys but considerably cheaper for equivalent sized cars. We are already seeing the writing on the wall over this and now that Nio has set its stall out in Norway it could be an incentive for others to follow their lead.
 

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Thats interesting, as not many people own both brands

I'm literally about to buy an ID3, (the Life, 58KWH battery, 200hp motor version with upgraded alloys). In its own right, I think the M3 is the better car. The question then becomes, at £41k for M3, and £26.5k for the ID3 - is it worth more than 50% extra cost? (£14.5k)

There is no right or wrong answer to this question - its all about opinion. No doubt the Tesla would be great fun - class leading acceleration for example. I personally think the VW has hit the sweet spot on bang for buck.

But otherwise, it doesn't really feel like Tesla is miles ahead - there are some things they are ahead on (performance for example), some things they are behind on (occupant safety for example)
Just to add, I don’t think the ID.3 and M3 are totally natural competitors, people seem to compare them because they’re both electric cars and available.

They are in different sectors, and cater for different needs and wants, although they will work for many people if you’re not too fussy or aren’t after a particular ‘thing’.

Both cars have strengths and weaknesses versus their genuine competitors, never mind each other, and which one you prefer will depend on which boxes to tick are most important to you.

I don’t have a downer on the M3, far from it, it’s well screwed together and mostly just works, and of course the performance is quite spritely. Rear and even front headroom is less than stellar, but compared to other ‘sports’ saloons probably good.

To link back to the original thread, I think if you boil down what we buy and actually use cars for, then everybody including Tesla has much to be concerned about with regard to Chinese designed/built competition. I think people used to swoon at Tesla, but they’re becoming so ubiquitous that there can’t be many people left who will be impressed by them. Not to say that makes them a bad car, but becoming more mainstream which is probably a good thing.

Competition is usually a good thing as well, so from that point of view I’m happy to sit back for a couple of years now and see what happens.
 

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What no-one has done yet is make a proper Defender type luxury EV with wanker-boy comfy seats, 3,500 kg towing capability and 400 mile range.

Yes JLR, I'm looking at you!
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
A new $15k US Chinese GAC Aion car that could very easily disrupt a few European markets.

 

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Thats interesting, as not many people own both brands

I'm literally about to buy an ID3, (the Life, 58KWH battery, 200hp motor version with upgraded alloys). In its own right, I think the M3 is the better car. The question then becomes, at £41k for M3, and £26.5k for the ID3 - is it worth more than 50% extra cost? (£14.5k)

There is no right or wrong answer to this question - its all about opinion. No doubt the Tesla would be great fun - class leading acceleration for example. I personally think the VW has hit the sweet spot on bang for buck.

But otherwise, it doesn't really feel like Tesla is miles ahead - there are some things they are ahead on (performance for example), some things they are behind on (occupant safety for example)
The big difference is Tesla dont make a "poverty spec" model 3. to match the TM3 SR+ , just for spec (range and performance you have no chance) you need to ;

Take the ID3 Life 58kwh pro performance 204PS @ £32255 and add

18" alloys £650
Interior Style plus £1920
Heat Pump £1000
Sport Package £340
Infotainment Package plus +£2200
Design Package Plus +2470
Carpet mats +110

For a grand sum of £38445 . And you are still short on spec as on the Life it's not possible to spec driver assistance package plus and design package plus at the same time!! It it where, add another £2k and you just about match the spec on a Tesla model 3 SR+ You need to max spec a Family or Max to try and equal a Tesla for spec.

If Tesla did have a model 3 Spec as basic as the VW ID3 Life spec (doesnt even have alloy wheels FFS) then i have no doubt it would be a similar price, but require it's own production line, and have poor sales.
 

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"Spec" isn't a thing. It's just a list of subjective add-ons, much of which are irrelevant. For example a heat pump is pointless for 95% of UK buyers so shouldn't be provided by default.

Tesla's problem is actually that they add things people say they might like but would prefer not to pay for. The majority set themselves a budget and don't allow mission creep.
 

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"Spec" isn't a thing. It's just a list of subjective add-ons, much of which are irrelevant. For example a heat pump is pointless for 95% of UK buyers so shouldn't be provided by default.

Tesla's problem is actually that they add things people say they might like but would prefer not to pay for. The majority set themselves a budget and don't allow mission creep.
At present Tesla don't care - they are selling all that they can produce and are making good margins. But when it comes down to price and minimal spec the Chinese are very competitive, often including items that you may not want "for free" at a low overall price. Whilst the ID.3 and 4 are excellent cars, converted ICE by the same group are/were not price competitive with offerings from SAIC for example.
The majority set themselves a budget and don't allow mission creep.
I think this will apply to people who may have bought from VAG previously, except people will take the opportunity to reduce their budget as Chinese cars cease being "cheap jokes".
 

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Your conclusions seem based on a series of observations about how cars have been copied... My point was about some bigger issues underlying this:

Rhetorically - in the 1970's could you laser scan a component in the UK, email the file to your suppliers in China and have an exact copy fabricated a few hours later? Could 1970's Japan have cloned a set of apple airpods and churned out thousands of fully working copies within a week? 'Catching up' in the 1970's was a far more laborious and difficult process. Culturally (my other point) the world was a far more closed place and people and ideas flowed less readily around the world. Simply our 2020's world is far smaller than 1970 world!
Not quite. My conclusions are also informed by China educating huge numbers of people. There are some capable young designers in China now in all disciplines. All they lack is older, more experienced people to guide them.

What I was saying is that 15 years ago, they copied western designs directly. Today, they're making designs of their own which are acceptable though not great. Those designs are based on what they learned from copying others designs. Sure enough, there are plenty of Chinese firms that still make exact (or cheapened) copies of other people's products. But they are starting to do their own design work and they're quite good at it.
 

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"Spec" isn't a thing. It's just a list of subjective add-ons, much of which are irrelevant. For example a heat pump is pointless for 95% of UK buyers so shouldn't be provided by default.

Tesla's problem is actually that they add things people say they might like but would prefer not to pay for. The majority set themselves a budget and don't allow mission creep.
If you dont need a heat pump , and there for dont really need range, especially 30% less winter range, then why did you not order a Maxda MX30 ? Cheaper than the ID3 life , no heat pump and will give you an easy 70 miles range in winter, more than you need, surely?
 
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