Speak EV - Electric Car Forums banner

81 - 100 of 141 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,464 Posts
Discussion Starter #81
That is in an excellent location for people comutting into London from the M40 corridor, I guess some people can actually afford the cars.
But really, if you had the choice of a £60,000 Prius or an iPace/Model 3/i3 what would you go for?

This scenario is not helped by the fact Toyota don't actually sell the Mirai to the general public. You need to search out people in the know and beg for one.
 

·
42k miles on public charging. Am I an expert yet?
Joined
·
2,617 Posts
But really, if you had the choice of a £60,000 Prius or an iPace/Model 3/i3 what would you go for?

This scenario is not helped by the fact Toyota don't actually sell the Mirai to the general public. You need to search out people in the know and beg for one.
Let's be more realistic.... the choice is going to be between a £60,000 Toyota Prius or a practically fully-loaded 5-series, even a base model 7-series, or perhaps an E63 AMG, a Model S can be had too if you're any good at man maths....or, if none of that takes your fancy and you want something 'a bit more Toyota', you could have a fully loaded Mondeo Hybrid, Nissan Leaf or Hyundai Ioniq for commuting, and have almost enough left over to have a Focus RS for the weekend!

You'd have to be incredibly keen on hydrogen to buy a Mirai (if you were allowed to)...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,220 Posts
Watched the video carefully of the opening of the M40 unit and....

1kg of hydrogen is £12.00.

That's roughly 16p a mile based on the NEDC rated range, and £60 for a 5kg fill. If anyone actually pays that, due to the car leasing agreement of course.

Even so. 16p a mile is fossil territory. Scary.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,464 Posts
Discussion Starter #86
Putting aside the infrastructure issues, FCEVs won't really take off beyond a few pilot schemes because BEVs are so cheap to run in comparison.

Add in that it's not clear exactly when manufacturers will actually have vehicles at dealerships for people to test drive and win over hearts and minds. Then you have things like the Model 3 which offer sports car performance for less money.

If BEVs didn't exist then it would be a way forward. But they do.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,897 Posts
You too can now refuel your FCEV at Beaconsfield!
Shell UK on Twitter
Anyone else spot the insane amount of equipment and works to install 1 pump? I've seen less people and equipment to install a 12 bay supercharger. Wow. That's gonna get expensive.
Wow, that big white tank behind the low wall is one heck of a target compared to underground petrol/diesel tanks!

I wonder how long before one is targeted?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,464 Posts
Discussion Starter #88
Probably not - I mean how many large Propane tanks are targeted?

Also if someone really wanted to they could fairly easily access the filling caps for the underground tank of unleaded.

I'm more concerned about the capital cost compared to the number of FCEVs that will actually get filled here. If rapid chargers for EH currently average 2-4 cars per day, how many do we realistically expect at Beaconsfield?

I'd be impressed if it was one a week.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,220 Posts
I'd like to know what happens when a lorry backs into the pump, as happens quite frequently elsewhere.

I assume there's no H2 anywhere in the pipework until a car is connected and a refuel initiated, and thus it is 100% safe?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,446 Posts
You too can now refuel your FCEV at Beaconsfield!

Shell UK on Twitter

Anyone else spot the insane amount of equipment and works to install 1 pump? I've seen less people and equipment to install a 12 bay supercharger. Wow. That's gonna get expensive.
That was my reaction when I watched the video too - what a palava to get the thing installed, and look at the real estate taken up by the electrolyser!

Two takeaways I have from that video:

1) If you are going to put electrolysers at service stations, there are a lot of existing service stations that simply won't have the room for an electrolyser - in that case they still have to rely on shipping hydrogen in tankers ? Many of these small service stations don't even have room to install one rapid charger let alone an electrolyser to support a hydrogen pump.

2) If you do your electrolysis on site instead of shipping the hydrogen by a (non existent) pipe network or by road tanker, you now have to bring a very high power connection from the grid to the site to electrolyse 24/7 or at least until the tank is topped up after use.

If there was a steady stream of HFCV cars arriving, which there presumably would be in a mirror universe where HFCV won, that electrolyser is going to be busy and that grid connection is going to have to be very big. Typical efficiency of electrolysis in bulk is about 50% and fuel cell efficiency in the car is also approximately 50%. So from grid to wheel the efficiency even when you have an electrolyser on site is going to be at most 25% - not much better than a petrol/diesel car's fuel energy content to wheel efficiency, as we already know.

Contrast this to a grid to wheel efficiency of a rapid charged EV on the order of >80% and you are looking at roughly three times the size of power connection to the grid required for the electrolyser to provide the same number of car miles compared to rapid charging EV's.

So suddenly the argument against large numbers of rapid chargers at a service station being infeasible due to the size of grid connection required and the difficulty getting that connection installed is turned on its head because a hydrogen fuelling station that can service the same number of car miles with an on-site electrolyser is going to require a grid connection 3 times larger... :rolleyes:

Ah you say, but rapid chargers put short lived but very high power level (50-150kW in the future) demands on that grid connection (which is a difficult load to deal with) versus an electrolyser that would produce a lower, more constant power demand when it is operating, in other words the electrolyser provides a degree of buffering.

It's true that an electrolyser would spread and buffer the load, but it wouldn't be a lower load - since the total energy requirements are going to be 3x higher, the load would be at least as high unless the peak to average ratio was greater than three, which doesn't seem likely to me at a busy service station.

Another factor is that if you have only one or two rapid chargers and they are intermittently used, then that is indeed a very peaky load, however if you have a row of 12 rapid chargers, and average utilisation at any given time is say 50%, that smoothes the load greatly, as individual chargers starting and stopping are only a small percentage of the total load.

The other option is on-site battery storage to provide buffering to smooth the load on the grid - which is already starting to be used by Tesla - and judging by the size of that electrolyser I'd be reasonably confident that a decent size buffering battery for rapid chargers would be both smaller and more conveniently shaped and locatable than that electrolyser!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,446 Posts
Watched the video carefully of the opening of the M40 unit and....

1kg of hydrogen is £12.00.

That's roughly 16p a mile based on the NEDC rated range, and £60 for a 5kg fill. If anyone actually pays that, due to the car leasing agreement of course.

Even so. 16p a mile is fossil territory. Scary.
A 40MPG diesel will cost about 12-14p / mile in fuel, so actually more expensive per mile than Diesel.

Meanwhile charging at home at a fairly average 12.3p/kWh my Ion costs 3p/mile to charge and takes me 20 seconds to plug in and unplug each day...

I just can't wait to switch over to Hydrogen! :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,464 Posts
Discussion Starter #92
1) If you are going to put electrolysers at service stations, there are a lot of existing service stations that simply won't have the room for an electrolyser - in that case they still have to rely on shipping hydrogen in tankers ? Many of these small service stations don't even have room to install one rapid charger let alone an electrolyser to support a hydrogen pump.
I doubt shipping H2 in bulk will ever be truly viable for FCEVs, hence the attraction of the ITM Power solution. They also have less wastage as you can generate what you need as required - in theory.

Of course you're going to need roughly the same number of H2 refuelling stations as there are petrol stations today, so yes a load of the smaller ones that don't really make money won't justify the capital investment, or have the space. Hence why they are installing them at the busiest forecourts in the country today.

Even with the latest announcement, we may just about see 300 FCEVs on the road in the next 2 years. Is this something that is really going to sustain a refuelling network, or will it become a bit of a millstone for the operators. Hell, operators of rapid chargers aren't making any money at the moment with 150,000 cars on the road.
 

·
42k miles on public charging. Am I an expert yet?
Joined
·
2,617 Posts
I'm more concerned about the capital cost compared to the number of FCEVs that will actually get filled here. If rapid chargers for EH currently average 2-4 cars per day, how many do we realistically expect at Beaconsfield?
Beaconfield is in fairness one of the busiest service areas in the country - there is almost constantly at least one rapid charger in use there and at peak times the three chargers work non stop. Not quite as busy as Cobham but not far off (although I think Norton Canes is still the busiest overall?)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,735 Posts
Watched the video carefully of the opening of the M40 unit and....

1kg of hydrogen is £12.00.

That's roughly 16p a mile based on the NEDC rated range, and £60 for a 5kg fill. If anyone actually pays that, due to the car leasing agreement of course.

Even so. 16p a mile is fossil territory. Scary.
I wonder why hydrogen is seen as the fuel of choice for some mercantile concerns? I'm just asking.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,897 Posts
Even with the latest announcement, we may just about see 300 FCEVs on the road in the next 2 years. Is this something that is really going to sustain a refuelling network, or will it become a bit of a millstone for the operators. Hell, operators of rapid chargers aren't making any money at the moment with 150,000 cars on the road.
Big difference is that we plug in at home.
I doubt we will be allowed to make H2 at home in any immediate future. :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 

·
The best there is at what I do
Joined
·
10,570 Posts
Beaconfield is in fairness one of the busiest service areas in the country - there is almost constantly at least one rapid charger in use there and at peak times the three chargers work non stop. Not quite as busy as Cobham but not far off (although I think Norton Canes is still the busiest overall?)
And rarely ICE'd, may be something to do with the reserved police spaces;)
 

·
42k miles on public charging. Am I an expert yet?
Joined
·
2,617 Posts
And rarely ICE'd, may be something to do with the reserved police spaces;)
Perhaps, although to be honest I think the reason it's rarely ICEd is because it's used so frequently. There may also be an element due to the quite intelligent car park design, which allows the chargers to be close to the building but not in an obvious location for typical car park users.

Where ICE drivers see chargers in use, they tend not to park in the bays - which is why it's so frustrating seeing people use ICEing as a reason not to charge!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,687 Posts
It is also on the crossroads of the A355/M40 which means it get quite a bit of north/south traffic which is not going anywhere on the motorway.
Which from an accessibility point of view in the part of the UK map, makes a very appealing location, imagine having to drive to Cobham to fill up, it will never catch on I tell ya!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,220 Posts
Anyone paying £750 a month for a Mirai needs their head examined. You'd be mad to do it.

I suspect Theo (of Theo's Mirai on twitter) is getting his car and fuel absolutely free of charge, in return for giving Toyota access to the car for research & feedback on it's real world performance.

Still, I have no doubt the unit will get used - there was one guy on twitter very excited that he can now fill up as he drives into central London. Once or twice a week, is my guess.
 

·
Driving yet another EV!
Joined
·
2,886 Posts
That was my reaction when I watched the video too - what a palava to get the thing installed, and look at the real estate taken up by the electrolyser!

Two takeaways I have from that video:

1) If you are going to put electrolysers at service stations, there are a lot of existing service stations that simply won't have the room for an electrolyser - in that case they still have to rely on shipping hydrogen in tankers ? Many of these small service stations don't even have room to install one rapid charger let alone an electrolyser to support a hydrogen pump.

2) If you do your electrolysis on site instead of shipping the hydrogen by a (non existent) pipe network or by road tanker, you now have to bring a very high power connection from the grid to the site to electrolyse 24/7 or at least until the tank is topped up after use.

If there was a steady stream of HFCV cars arriving, which there presumably would be in a mirror universe where HFCV won, that electrolyser is going to be busy and that grid connection is going to have to be very big. Typical efficiency of electrolysis in bulk is about 50% and fuel cell efficiency in the car is also approximately 50%. So from grid to wheel the efficiency even when you have an electrolyser on site is going to be at most 25% - not much better than a petrol/diesel car's fuel energy content to wheel efficiency, as we already know.

Contrast this to a grid to wheel efficiency of a rapid charged EV on the order of >80% and you are looking at roughly three times the size of power connection to the grid required for the electrolyser to provide the same number of car miles compared to rapid charging EV's.

So suddenly the argument against large numbers of rapid chargers at a service station being infeasible due to the size of grid connection required and the difficulty getting that connection installed is turned on its head because a hydrogen fuelling station that can service the same number of car miles with an on-site electrolyser is going to require a grid connection 3 times larger... :rolleyes:

Ah you say, but rapid chargers put short lived but very high power level (50-150kW in the future) demands on that grid connection (which is a difficult load to deal with) versus an electrolyser that would produce a lower, more constant power demand when it is operating, in other words the electrolyser provides a degree of buffering.

It's true that an electrolyser would spread and buffer the load, but it wouldn't be a lower load - since the total energy requirements are going to be 3x higher, the load would be at least as high unless the peak to average ratio was greater than three, which doesn't seem likely to me at a busy service station.

Another factor is that if you have only one or two rapid chargers and they are intermittently used, then that is indeed a very peaky load, however if you have a row of 12 rapid chargers, and average utilisation at any given time is say 50%, that smoothes the load greatly, as individual chargers starting and stopping are only a small percentage of the total load.

The other option is on-site battery storage to provide buffering to smooth the load on the grid - which is already starting to be used by Tesla - and judging by the size of that electrolyser I'd be reasonably confident that a decent size buffering battery for rapid chargers would be both smaller and more conveniently shaped and locatable than that electrolyser!
But... people keep saying that between 80% and 90% of EV charging is done at home/work, and this is not possible with H2, so you need to multiply that factor of 3 by another 5 or 10, meaning that the service-station grid load is going to be 15 to 30 times as high to support the same H2 miles as EV miles.
 
81 - 100 of 141 Posts
Top