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Anyone paying £750 a month for a Mirai needs their head examined. You'd be mad to do it.
I doubt an individual would do it. A police department or government agency perhaps... :whistle:
 

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42k miles on public charging. Am I an expert yet?
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I doubt an individual would do it. A police department or government agency perhaps... :whistle:
With the way Freedom of Information works nowadays, any budget holder in such a department would surely be committing career suicide to do that unless there was either one hell of an incentive from the manufacturer (which might risk being highlighted as an unfair incentive if there wasn't a competitive procurement) or a big grant from somewhere...
 

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I've always thought that H2 would be ideal for freight transport especially trains, its got to be cheaper than trying to electrify the lines. HGVs would be another good application as well as buses round town.
Drive round any housing estate in the day time and see how many cars are parked outside people's houses, they probably only do the school run and the shopping, these would definitely benefit from being EV as they contribute to a lot of the pollution in the towns especially round schools.
 

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42k miles on public charging. Am I an expert yet?
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I've always thought that H2 would be ideal for freight transport especially trains, its got to be cheaper than trying to electrify the lines. HGVs would be another good application as well as buses round town.
Drive round any housing estate in the day time and see how many cars are parked outside people's houses, they probably only do the school run and the shopping, these would definitely benefit from being EV as they contribute to a lot of the pollution in the towns especially round schools.
This is more in line with my thing and, realistically, what I believe will end up being the way forward.

Long distance, high loads that are time critical (trucks, coaches, commercial vehicles) are well suited to Hydrogen - they don't have time to recharge batteries, they'll use the Hydrogen they take on quickly enough that evaporation etc. won't be a problem, have much more capacity for longer range tanks that batteries can't realistically do, and they don't need to have anywhere near as comprehensive an infrastructure as cars and light goods vehicles. Annnnd because the drivers all have to be professionals with special training anyway, they can be trained in the safety aspects of Hydrogen at the same time, unlike consumers. Annd because the workshops are more limited in number and more specialist in ability, it'll be easier to upgrade them all.

On the other hand, for probably >95% of most domestic use, EVs are ideal as they are and it might take ten years or so but they will eventually cover all of the potential bases for cars and LGVs too.
 

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But... people keep saying that between 80% and 90% of EV charging is done at home/work, and this is not possible with H2, so you need to multiply that factor of 3 by another 5 or 10, meaning that the service-station grid load is going to be 15 to 30 times as high to support the same H2 miles as EV miles.
Yes, sort of.

Remember it's a motorway services. You'd need to do a study to find out what proportion of those using it are using it as a way point of a long motorway journey, (that would require rapid charging even on a big battery BEV) and what proportion are "locals" pootling around the area. (Who would most likely charge at home instead with a BEV)

I don't know the specific location but I suspect most people fill up their ICE cars at a service station near their home or along their work commute unless they are going for a long trip. When I used to fill my ICE during a normal weekly commute the last place I would voluntarily choose would be a busy motorway services. I always went to a small station near my home.

And if I had a HFCV and Hydrogen stations were as numerous as petrol stations then I would probably do the same.

Averaged over the whole country you are absolutely right - HFCV's can only be fuelled at service stations so you'd need as many stations as we have now for petrol and diesel, but a lot of EV charging will transfer to homes and some to places of business.

However I think you'll find that the core motorway services will be as busy as ever even with EV's due to them servicing primarily long distance travel.
 

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I've always thought that H2 would be ideal for freight transport especially trains, its got to be cheaper than trying to electrify the lines. HGVs would be another good application as well as buses round town.
Yep!

You can cover the roof of a train depot in PV and help offset some of the carbon impact of making H2. The costs of new rolling stock are so much cheaper than electrification AND new rolling stock.

For HGVs, it's not clear cut. Drivers are limited on hours, and the hub and spoke distribution model means that HGEVs (to coin an acronym) can recharge when being loaded/unloaded quite easily and cheaply. Buses ditto; most cover under 100 miles a day depending on route and city, I know in Oxford they do around 80 miles per day.
 

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Yes, sort of.

Remember it's a motorway services. You'd need to do a study to find out what proportion of those using it are using it as a way point of a long motorway journey, (that would require rapid charging even on a big battery BEV) and what proportion are "locals" pootling around the area. (Who would most likely charge at home instead with a BEV)

I don't know the specific location but I suspect most people fill up their ICE cars at a service station near their home or along their work commute unless they are going for a long trip. When I used to fill my ICE during a normal weekly commute the last place I would voluntarily choose would be a busy motorway services. I always went to a small station near my home.

And if I had a HFCV and Hydrogen stations were as numerous as petrol stations then I would probably do the same.

Averaged over the whole country you are absolutely right - HFCV's can only be fuelled at service stations so you'd need as many stations as we have now for petrol and diesel, but a lot of EV charging will transfer to homes and some to places of business.

However I think you'll find that the core motorway services will be as busy as ever even with EV's due to them servicing primarily long distance travel.
But if you had an H2 car, and the only filling stations were on the motorway, what alternative would you have? How many 'local' filling stations have the space and power to add a large electrolyser? Note that the one in this example is tiny compared to what would be required to support as many cars as even a single petrol pump.
 

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However I think you'll find that the core motorway services will be as busy as ever even with EV's due to them servicing primarily long distance travel.
Yes - just look at Oxford M40 services on a Sunday afternoon - rammed with Tesla cars, so much so they had to double the bays. Warwick likewise, and when we get Leicester Forest East, that will be manic, I am sure.
 

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Discussion Starter #109
Yes - just look at Oxford M40 services on a Sunday afternoon - rammed with Tesla cars, so much so they had to double the bays. Warwick likewise, and when we get Leicester Forest East, that will be manic, I am sure.
Well for one thing the ITM pumps won't be full of freeloading locals at £12 per kg. :)
 

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Anyone paying £750 a month for a Mirai needs their head examined. You'd be mad to do it.
I suspect Theo (of Theo's Mirai on twitter) is getting his car and fuel absolutely free of charge, in return for giving Toyota access to the car for research & feedback on it's real world performance.
Still, I have no doubt the unit will get used - there was one guy on twitter very excited that he can now fill up as he drives into central London. Once or twice a week, is my guess.
I doubt an individual would do it. A police department or government agency perhaps... :whistle:
Ford contracted Azure Dynamics to build BEV Connect vans some years ago that cost an amazing £40,000 each but still less than a Mirai.

I don't know who decided being able to tick the Eco box was worth the cost but few were sold anyway and caused Azure to fold.
Not all bad news as it gave me the chance to buy a motor, gearbox, inverter etc at rock bottom prices for one of my home builds. :rolleyes:
 

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Why can't electric trains have batteries that automatically rapid charge at the station and on electrified parts of the line, and run off batteries on the unelectrified parts of the lines ?

Removal of the diesel engine and generator set on current series hybrid diesel electric trains must surely free up a lot of room for batteries ? Why even consider hydrogen ?
 

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Yes - just look at Oxford M40 services on a Sunday afternoon - rammed with Tesla cars, so much so they had to double the bays. Warwick likewise, and when we get Leicester Forest East, that will be manic, I am sure.
Been driving to Leeds a lot recently ( I know, I do get to leave as well though :p) and always look for the Tesla bays close to the motorway at Woodall services to note there are always at least one in use.
I assume if you are on the North bound motorway that it is easy to cross over by the service road.

Anyway, many of us Leicester plug inners charge at home and don't all freeload.:ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
 

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Yeah so Alstom have made some H2 train units, now in fare paying service in Germany. I can see some viability there.

It is cheaper than the hundreds of billions just to OLE and buy new trains. We've just had the GW mainline done - scarring the landscape with OLE (I'm not fussed, I like trains, but the locals hate it). So H2 trains fix this issue quite neatly.

No one is going to electrify lines in rural Scotland/Wales/West Country/etc any time soon - so if you can have a solution where trains that are diagrammed for >700 miles a day can run. If you can make that H2 cleanly then great.

We shouldn't be anti H2 just because we know FCEVs are utterly absurd.

H2 is totally unsuited to high volume, low mileage transportation (i.e. cars) but much better for the opposite - including cargo ships. Ports are windy places, stick up some turbines, generate H2, better than bunker oil, right?
 

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I assume if you are on the North bound motorway that it is easy to cross over by the service road.
Yes, but don't expect to have much of your suspension left afterwards. To say the road is potholed in an understatement. You could probably drop a ball down one and it end up in China.
 

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Why can't electric trains have batteries that automatically rapid charge at the station and on electrified parts of the line, and run off batteries on the unelectrified parts of the lines ?
They can and it has been done. For heavy rail, there was a demonstrator running on lines in Essex three years ago (though withdrawn after trial). In light rail, Midland Metro is currently rolling out battery-equipped trams so that some new sections of line through difficult areas of Birmingham city centre don't need to be wired. In both cases the batteries are charged when running on parts of the network which are wired, as you suggest.
 

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Well for one thing the ITM pumps won't be full of freeloading locals at £12 per kg. :)
Nope... they will all be charging at home.

Hang on... erm... fulling with cheap H2 at home.

Erm... er... wait... that's not right...

Actually, what do you expect the "locals" to be doing if not filling up here?
 

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42k miles on public charging. Am I an expert yet?
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Why can't electric trains have batteries that automatically rapid charge at the station and on electrified parts of the line, and run off batteries on the unelectrified parts of the lines ?

Removal of the diesel engine and generator set on current series hybrid diesel electric trains must surely free up a lot of room for batteries ? Why even consider hydrogen ?
Bombardier are currently trialling one or two trains with this setup, but at the moment the sheer weight of batteries required to make 300 tonnes plus of train move is...well, a hell of a lot. I can't imagine it being cheap either, and I can't see batteries powering trains at 125/155/185mph including all the acceleration (regenerative braking already exists on trains) for too long. You'd need a hell of a charger.
 
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