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I had one of those "what if" questions pop into my brain. If someone could afford either a brand new EV, or could buy a second hand, but much more luxurious, and up-market diesel for the same money, which purchase would be better for the environment - the second hand diesel euro 6 "clean" diesel that has already been manufactured and had its build impact, or the "new" EV that has to be manufactured from new resources ?
 

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I had one of those "what if" questions pop into my brain. If someone could afford either a brand new EV, or could buy a second hand, but much more luxurious, and up-market diesel for the same money, which purchase would be better for the environment - the second hand diesel euro 6 "clean" diesel that has already been manufactured and had its build impact, or the "new" EV that has to be manufactured from new resources ?
Depends on their annual mileage and chosen. Maybe for very low mileage but that that scenario is likely to bork the diesel engine resulting in costly repairs or early scrapping of the car. Same for any new vs 2nd hand considerations for anything.
 

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Using some figures from
it looks like once you get past 40,000 miles a Nissan Leaf would have been the greener choice.

TLDR (or TLDW in this case!) It depends a lot on the carbon intensity of the factory where your new EV is being built and also to a lesser extent the carbon intensity of the electricity used to charge the EV but certainly once you get towards 100k mileage figures EVs are always better. Surely the greenest choice would be a used EV though :)
 

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Completely depends on the defined system boundaries. Looking at fleets and populations, used EVs are irrelevant because there are not enough of them, people need to buy new otherwise any CO2 savings are parasitic. Overall the cleanest choice is to reject out of hand large ICE personal use vehicles.
 

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Yeah it's totally reasonable to use up the stock of existing vehicles. That's why the ban will be on the sale of new vehicles.
 

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There is no green source of Fossil fuels. The energy conversion is a one way and results in CO2 emissions. Electricity has multiple sources - In UK, we are transitioning to green sources with negligible coal and increases renewable output.
Battery requires specialist manufacture but it is getting cleaner with conflict Cobalt being removed. Oil on the other hand has been in conflict for decades, a cause of global warming.
All said and done, we have 1 EV and 1 PHEV. I try to use PHEV in EV mode as much as possible. When I can afford a long range EV, I will switch from PHEV to EV for second car.
 

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I ran the numbers once on another forum (lexus) where the question was posed of keeping an LS400 V8 running vs an EV.

My numbers said that even taking into account manufacturing emissions, and assuming 0 for the older V8 (as avehicle that already exists), it was only about 30k miles to break even there.

Obviously a newer diesel model has significantly less CO2 emission than a 90s V8 petrol does, but greater particulate emissions (NOx might be a wash as some 90s petrol engines ran very hot (high NOx) for better thermal efficiency (eg BMW M62 V8 - ran 115-125C coolant temp at low load)). If we reasonably assume that a more modern diesel has 1/2 the emissions of a 90s V8 petrol (as you mentioned a luxurious modern car, so our 2011 Volvo V70 D5 Polestar Euro V returned 38.6mpg over the 46000 miles we had it, which works out to just a shade under 200g/km as a real-world example, and one close to your experience with the D6) then that says 60k miles would be the break-even point between an older diesel vehicle with 0 production emissions.

That analysis neglects the environmental impact of "consumables" like engine oil, belts, filters, etc, it neglects the well-to-pump emissions of fossil fuels and it neglects the ever-decreasing CO2 emission of driving an EV (ie that the g/km for an EV is now, using 2019 figures, less than half what it was in 2013 in the UK). In other words, 50k miles and decreasing is the break-even point against a diesel vehicle that already exists.

The point is, however, largely moot. It's not a decision about whether to sweep 3-year old Euro 6 cars off the road and replace them with EVs. Euro 6 cars will be bought second hand by buyers replacing euro 3 and euro 4 cars that have come to the end of their lives. That will have benefits for local air quality and to some extent CO2 emissions (although as you may be aware from the world of volvos, newer emissions standards don't necessarily mean lower CO2; the Volvo D5 went from returning mid 50s mpg in euro 3 trim to mid 30s in euro 4 (DPF) trim - CO2 went up, but NOx and particulates came down significantly). Whilst a very small number of private buyers might be choosing between buying a model 3 or a second-hand BMW 535d or something the reality of the new car market is based on fleet sales and leases, with EVs heavily boosted for fleet and salary sacrifice lease thanks to the BIK rules.
 

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If your definition of 'greener' includes particulate matter (PM) as well as CO2 emissions then a BEV wins hands down because the only PM it will produce is brake dust. Even then the amount of that will be smaller if the BEV has decent regenerative braking.

Every BEV sold and every ICE not sold as a consequence is moving manufacturers towards mass producing BEVs and making the big switch over.
 

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Kona PremSe64k 2020+bluelink +ohme
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Another dimension is beyond the individual driver & car.

If we are to have a cleaner environment, and assuming on average an EV achieves this compared with ICE, then encouraging adoption at a faster rate is important, if not critical. If everyone sticks with their deisel waiting for some nirvana to arrive, likely as not it will never happen. Change needs idiots, early adopters who change for novelty, lots of money, particular insights or pure belief etc.

As adoption increases the equation changes in favour of new solutions - the economies of scale are already weighing in favour of EVs except for particular or contrived scenarios. Gov't subsidy helps to swing that scale towards EVs. This year is a clear acceleration of EVs in the public mind. But it is still going to be an uphill battle against the momentum and repeated mythology that ICE is better, and for some diehards always will be.
 

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As adoption increases the equation changes in favour of new solutions - the economies of scale are already weighing in favour of EVs except for particular or contrived scenarios. Gov't subsidy helps to swing that scale towards EVs. This year is a clear acceleration of EVs in the public mind. But it is still going to be an uphill battle against the momentum and repeated mythology that ICE is better, and for some diehards always will be.
This is rather premature, the balance has not yet swung to EVs; the upfront purchase cost for both new and used EVs is still significantly higher than ICE vehicles, the total whole-life costs are around break-even with ICE but only over the life of the vehicle and that is with EVs paying significantly less tax than ICE. And those whole life costs aren't really a consideration for most new car purchasers who change car every few years, so for whom the biggest cost isn't fuel, but depreciation.

No doubt EVs are the future for various reasons we'd all agree on, but there's also no doubt that ICE vehicles and particularly used ICE vehicles, offer some quite exceptional capabilities at what are very low costs. I've got an ICE parked on the drive, it's old now to the point of being pretty much worthless, but it's still reasonably fuel efficient (50+mpg) and with a range (500+ miles) that is still unmatched by any EV. Ignoring cost, there isn't an EV on the market today that can match an old, worthless ICE banger for range.

The challenge for EVs isn't momentum or mythology, it's that 100+ years of refinement and mass-manufacturing has got ICE technology to the point of offering pretty impressive capabilities for comparatively little money, EVs are getting there but there's still a hill to scale.
 

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a BEV wins hands down because the only PM it will produce is brake dust.
And tyre particulates too of course, but all vehicles produce those, although arguably slightly higher for BEVs owing to the generally higher weight.

On the plus side, as the countries electricity generation gets greener then so does an EV, not the same for ICE vehicles although there would be some oil refining benefit from green electricity as well.

Bottom line though is that the only true 'green motoring' is no motoring at all...
 

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There is no green source of Fossil fuels.
That is tautological if you are defining 'green' as 'renewable'.

There's no green renewable energy either, all such energy is made with machines that have generated CO2 in their manufacture.

Show me a wind turbine made from wood. What are the wires made from? Grass?
 

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I had one of those "what if" questions pop into my brain. If someone could afford either a brand new EV, or could buy a second hand, but much more luxurious, and up-market diesel for the same money, which purchase would be better for the environment - the second hand diesel euro 6 "clean" diesel that has already been manufactured and had its build impact, or the "new" EV that has to be manufactured from new resources ?
Define 'green' and 'better for the environment' (I presume you'll have the same definition, given the way the title and your post are spun?), I'll give you an answer, possibly a few to cover different scenarios.
 

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Define 'green' and 'better for the environment' (I presume you'll have the same definition, given the way the title and your post are spun?), I'll give you an answer, possibly a few to cover different scenarios.
I was only referring to source of energy propelling the vehicle. Everything has carbon debt as wood/ coal / oil is the easiest and cheapest source of energy we have used for a very long time.


Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
@donald
I should learn to think before I type - but I'll try and define what I was "wondering". It basically comes down to how many miles you would have to do in a "green" (and by that I mean more efficient and cleaner than older engines) euro 6 second hand diesel car, to equate to the production costs, with regard to the impact on both humans (ie the kids mining the metals) and the environment (and I'm not really sure what that encompasses in its entirety) of a new EV car.

I know its not a sensible question, emissions from running a diesel are different to those presumably produced whilst making a new car, but you get what I mean ?

Is there actually a chance that continuing to use an existing euro 6 diesel is a "greener" choice than causing the manufacture of a new EV, just because greta says you have to !!
 

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This recent video
has a lot to say on the matter - looking at an EV van with 100,000 miles on the clock and b**r all maintenance costs. Not covered is all the time and effort filling the ICE, taking it to the garage etc. Lots of inconvenience evaporates. That's not to say EV's don't have issues, but they are much simpler in the hardware dept, all the complexity is in software.
 
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