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So London is launching its ultra low emissions zone in April, which initially only covers the very small congestion charge area, but will expand to a much larger area in 2021 getting close to my house. I was happy (and a bit surprised) to find that my wife's Mini PHEV qualifies as a low emissions vehicle. Given that we live 12 miles from London and by the time we get there the battery would have pretty much exhausted itself, then this seems rather generous. Then I thought let's check Prius, the self-charging wonder, as there are so many Uber drivers using these that there would be uproar if they did not qualify for exemption. Lo and behold, after punching in a reg plate from a car on autotrader, they are also exempt. Seems "Slightly lower emissions zone" might be a better description than "ultra low"
 

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Yes it is an odd description and perhaps "Anti Diesel Zone" might be more appropriate ;)

Petrol Euro 4 cars are allowed and some were registered as far back as 2001! Meanwhile, a 2015 registered diesel might be Euro 5 and have to pay.
 
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Yes it is an odd description and perhaps "Anti Diesel Zone" might be more appropriate ;)

Petrol Euro 4 cars are allowed and some were registered as far back as 2001! Meanwhile, a 2015 registered diesel might be Euro 5 and have to pay.
My other car is a 2017 diesel :whistle:. Just checked and it is not subject to the charge, so the zone is not even an anti-diesel zone.
 

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My other car is a 2017 diesel :whistle:. Just checked and it is not subject to the charge, so the zone is not even an anti-diesel zone.
"Anti Older Diesel" then ;) The objective to reduce NOx and particulates rather than CO2 and Euro 6 Diesels are allegedly OK in this regard.

Bear in mind there is also the CG which affects all fossil fuel cars (and even PHEVs soon) during the active hours.
 
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The joke is the lad has a 2011 Mini diesel which has to pay but our EU6 Transit bus doesn't.
60mpg vs 20mpg...
 

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The joke is the lad has a 2011 Mini diesel which has to pay but our EU6 Transit bus doesn't.
60mpg vs 20mpg...
Sure, a lot more CO2 but your Transit has AdBlue to reduce the NOx. Central government might be bothered about CO2 (for obvious reasons) but London is all about NOx and particulates.
 

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Sure, a lot more CO2 but your Transit has AdBlue to reduce the NOx. Central government might be bothered about CO2 (for obvious reasons) but London is all about NOx and particulates.
I know and I totally understand the decisions but the Mini is already pretty clean and literally a third of the weight. It also has stop/start and £30 tax band.
I wonder if total NOx is actually worse.
 

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It is all about the London authorities learning what vehicles are actually causing what and adjusting their rules as things progress or not.
Am I right in thinking they free to do so unless the government stops them?
 

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You can search for cars air quality at the link below and a Mini Diesel 2011 in no better than Diesel Euro 3 in real world testing. Historic road tax has no reflection on NOx and particulates, especially in real world testing.

EQUA Air Quality Index | EQUA INDEX | Independent real world driving data

The problem London has is that the race to lower CO2 and the OEMs designing cars to meet lab based results (not real world) created worse air quality in the city as diesels became more popular. Displacing as many of those as possible is the only real way forward.
 

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You can search for cars air quality at the link below and a Mini Diesel 2011 in no better than Diesel Euro 3 in real world testing. Historic road tax has no reflection on NOx and particulates, especially in real world testing.

EQUA Air Quality Index | EQUA INDEX | Independent real world driving data

The problem London has is that the race to lower CO2 and the OEMs designing cars to meet lab based results (not real world) created worse air quality in the city as diesels became more popular. Displacing as many of those as possible is the only real way forward.
I suppose it depends on what they consider the greater threat - NOx which will kill people locally or CO2 which could kill everyone on the planet.
Pollution in cities isn't really a problem of the car itself - it's a problem of the overcrowding and the way the car is used.
This is also why plug in's make so much sense while battery tech is where it is. Infact a plug in diesel could be considerd one of the best options. Low CO2 when doing distance and NOx is less important then low NOx in the built up areas where it's short range doesn't matter so much.
Of course having buildings which could actually cope with the number of vehicles going to them and a road network which could service that would lead to far less congestion in the first place which makes every single vehicle on the road cleaner.
 

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PHEVs might be a good idea for London if people could and did charge them so they ran EV on local trips.

However, the reality (from fleet data) is people buy them to avoid CG (and forthcoming ULEZ) but just drive them on fossil fuel. Sure, there are exceptions - most people on this forum, I am sure ;)
 
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PHEVs might be a good idea for London if people could and did charge them so they ran EV on local trips.

However, the reality (from fleet data) is people buy them to avoid CG (and forthcoming ULEZ) but just drive them on fossil fuel. Sure, there are exceptions - most people on this forum, I am sure ;)
Even though I only have a 60Ah i3 I haven't burnt a drop of fuel inside the M25, what I usually do is drive down to Beaconsfield charge up and then enter London with an almost full battery, on the odd occasion that the charger (yes I know there are 3 but I can only use the one) has failed I've diverted to Heston and used that instead.

I think the government should be encouraging some PHEVs as it is an ideal stepping stone to going full EV (once the charging infrastructure is fit for purpose) while avoiding any range anxiety.
 

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"Anti Older Diesel" then ;) The objective to reduce NOx and particulates rather than CO2 and Euro 6 Diesels are allegedly OK in this regard.

Bear in mind there is also the CG which affects all fossil fuel cars (and even PHEVs soon) during the active hours.
Technically the CC zone should be based on size (or perhaps occupancy) and the ULEZ on emissions.. It’s all a bit of a mess..
 

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Tokyo banned all commercial diesels in 2000 then all passenger diesels were phased out over 7 years. If only London could act with such clarity 18 years later.
It's great they have clarity but it's also a bit lop sided. Diesels almost always give lower CO2 and now that petrols are downsizing, using higher compression and direct injection the lines on NOx are getting more and more blurred too.
Since new diesels have to have DPF's and adblue (presuming working correctly and not doctored), they can have lower NOx than petrols.
ADAC recently did a study on it which showed certain diesels where the NOx content was 1mg/km or even zero.
Now remember Japan has a massive car industry who's diesel tech had been falling further behind others for a very long time and ask yourself if that legislation was completely environmentally based.
 

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I'm off to London in a few weeks, so I've stumped up a tenner to register my car so I won't fall foul of straying into any areas I shouldn't in fact I'm now going to drive right through the LEZ because I can:D

No need to worry, I haven't burnt a drop of petrol inside the M25 for the last 4 years and I don't intend to start now, its a shame that TFL thinks my car is a problem, if I bought a BEV and put a generator in the boot I wonder how they would view that, it's like I keep saying to everyone just because I have a shotgun doesn't mean I'm going to kill anyone with it, not unless they really pi55 me off anyway;)
 

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I'm off to London in a few weeks, so I've stumped up a tenner to register my car so I won't fall foul of straying into any areas I shouldn't in fact I'm now going to drive right through the LEZ because I can:D

No need to worry, I haven't burnt a drop of petrol inside the M25 for the last 4 years and I don't intend to start now, its a shame that TFL thinks my car is a problem, if I bought a BEV and put a generator in the boot I wonder how they would view that, it's like I keep saying to everyone just because I have a shotgun doesn't mean I'm going to kill anyone with it, not unless they really pi55 me off anyway;)
Then there is the bizarre situation where my car is actually a lot more environmentally friendly that a Leaf under certain circumstances.

Basically TFL haven't got a clue and are just lumping everyone into very neat categories because it makes their administration easier, the real problem is with DVSA who haven't a clue either.
 

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Then there is the bizarre situation where my car is actually a lot more environmentally friendly that a Leaf under certain circumstances.

Basically TFL haven't got a clue and are just lumping everyone into very neat categories because it makes their administration easier, the real problem is with DVSA who haven't a clue either.
I drive an i3 94 rex and actually welcome that TFL are ahead the game on this issue.
If however cars like ours were fitted with automatic cutoff devises that guaranteed that they could not use the rex whilst in the zone, then that would be another matter.
But what does bother me is what vehicles will be exempt because they taxis, or whatever.
 

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"I suppose it depends on what they consider the greater threat - NOx which will kill people locally or CO2 which could kill everyone on the planet."

Oh the irony CO2 emission are falling in the UK/EU/USA, Diesel cars still emit CO2 but hey lets just make the local air toxic
 

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Discussion Starter #20
It's great they have clarity but it's also a bit lop sided. Diesels almost always give lower CO2 and now that petrols are downsizing, using higher compression and direct injection the lines on NOx are getting more and more blurred too.
Since new diesels have to have DPF's and adblue (presuming working correctly and not doctored), they can have lower NOx than petrols.
ADAC recently did a study on it which showed certain diesels where the NOx content was 1mg/km or even zero.
Now remember Japan has a massive car industry who's diesel tech had been falling further behind others for a very long time and ask yourself if that legislation was completely environmentally based.
Yes yes yes but the situation in London is you have HGVs, other commercial vans and taxis belching out fumes, vehicles that are older and have none of the technology. And as you rightly mention, even those that claim to have this technology are often caught lying, e.g. JLR
 
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