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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I bought a electric supercharger its from a Audi SQ7 4.0 tdi for those who want to know. the unit is made by valeo part number 057145601D /F

im going to run it on a bmw 320d E90 2006 but ill be keeping the original turbocharger as well this one will just be for initial boost so it will be bursts of power not constant and i believe the amps calculated out at 146a. correct me if im wrong.

anyway im in need of a battery or battery pack and it needs 48v and its a 7kw system i would like something that's compact where possible (i know that might be a problem) while i have a fair bit of space its not unlimited of course.

any idea's suggestions and comments are welcome. please understand i don't want a supercharger i dont have the room in the right place to put one but i do have a lot of space in the engine bay as well. I plan to fit the turbo above the existing one there was a very large airbox there which is now gone so there is plenty of space for the electric turbocharger, i could fit 2 of them if it wasnt for the need of the extra battery power lol. . Also the egr cooler has been removed so that means i can access the coolant lines easily should i need them not sure if i would need another radiator for coolant for the turbo but there is enough room if i do need one.


i got a space under the boot carpet the biggest area could fit 2 standard car batteries with lots of height above them and i got a small shallow area next to it and also a larger shallow area the width of the first 2 mentioned. so plenty of places to put things in the boot under the carpet and if need be i have some room above it at the sides i could use as well. in the engine bay i got maybe a foot in front of the engine which stretches out to the sides theres more space behind the right headlight (as your standing in front of it) could fit a big airbox there as an example of the space.

i should do a video really if anyone wants to see all the space ive got i will. i hope ive given all the information needed if not please ask.

Thanks in advance
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
What sort of losses are we talking about here? like if it was in the boot for example.

duty cycle ive no idea what that is. I know what it means though I have that on my welders. How would i find out? Idont think its going to be easy to get data sheets

that battery looks a reasonable size any idea on dimensions? might be possible to put it in the engine bay but is 8AH going to be enough? its a 7kw system on the Audi just for the turbo itself.

charging havent got to that yet but there are plenty of options such as running a second alternator. i believe the original charges from the alternator on the car
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Not an expert but i always believed Turbo's worked on exhaust gases via exhaust manifold (get exhaust gases out quicker, maker more power) , and Superchargers worked on getting air into the car engine quicker by pushing it into the intake manifold, to make more power.

I have know of several specialist cars over the years that were both Supercharged and Turbocharged at the same time.
yeah thats right
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Given that this is your install you can make the numbers up. By duty cycle I mean how often is it going to operate and for how long each time. For example if it is just to get you off the line from idle until the engine reaches max boost you are probably looking at around 10 seconds at most. In that case you are unlikely to need to use it again for at least another 30 seconds and for say a maximum of 10 times in a row. Anything else would be after a suitable cool down/recharge period. If those figures are correct you are using 7kW x 10 seconds x 10 times = 700,000 Joules which is about 200Wh or 0.2kWh. So that's in the capacity of the battery suggested earlier.
What's not possible is to run the electric turbo for more than twice that - in other words for more than 200 seconds continuously. But why would you? The standard turbo is for that, not an electric powered one. Even if you are into running 0-100 times it will be over in less than 20 seconds in a standard car, and it takes time to slow down to do it again.
I'd be interested to know how you intend to control it. Have you an ECU for it or are you using simple pressure switches?

it will be from idle until either turbo starts to spool up so maybe 700 to 1500 rpm but only testing will tell because it depends how quick the electric charger can get the revs up for the other turbo to then take over. ive a feeling it may not be for as long as you would think because in theory if the electric turbocharger is pushing in a decent amount it can speed up the time to get to where its cut off.

i dont know if youve seen it but there are many electric supercharger video's on youtube titles $1500 turbo $2500 turbo $4500 turbo. all have 1 thing in common they are running from 12 volts and in tests they are only producing a max of about 5 psi which is pretty useless for as diesel as they average 20 psi on most diesels in stock form. so the ney sayers will have probably seen these video's but there is a guy on youtube runs a 6 min video and he talks about thissystem in the audi thats where i got the 7kw from its supposed to be the rating of the turbocharger.

control wise thats probably going to be my brothers department he's a tuner he's done custom builds and aftermarket ecu's etc so he knows all that stuff.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
The op has no electronics knowledge if he doesn't know what duty cycle is and hasn't said how he plans to recharge the battery.
Unless he has someone lined who does have the relevant knowledge and skills he has a lot of issues to overcome.
He's also not said how he will plumb in the electric turbo and how he will control the changeover valve.
i didnt say i didnt know what duty cycle means, i just dont know the duty cycle of this turbocharger.


plumbing in etc is not something im concerned about right now, what im concerned about right now is doing a lot of research getting some opinions from others and then deciding what the next thing to buy will be. for wiring and electronics thats my brothers department he is a tuner, engine builder and he works with aftermarket ecu's etc.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Let the OP answer some of the fundamentally simple questions we've asked first. This sounds to me like it is going nowhere very quickly.

How is he even going to power this turbo? It is not going to be a simple DC power supply or such. How will he even PWM his 48V battery?
you are exactly right its going nowhere quickliy that is true. this is still in the research stage and process of gathering parts so there is a lot of legwork to do. at the moment im looking at batteries seems i can buy the audi battery but there may be a better solution that is easier to integrate.

but i would welcome information about charging because if i do buy a battery i will want to keep it healthy until its actually going to be used.
 

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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
So ive been doing a bit of research ive found some places do 1000w 48v alternators is that enough? i also found out that many cars with 48v systems use a dc to dc converter for charging but i didnt find any info on the alternators themselves but i expect they are probably 48v alternators which are used to charge both the 48v battery and the 12v.

also i foumnd an original audi battery and here isa picture from the sticker so we can see what its specification is. battery doesnt look tall but i would like to know how long and wide it is
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
You still must have a BMS (battery management system) to control charging and be matched to the type of batttery chemistry and battery spec. You must NEVER allow an overcharge to happen to a Li-ion battery because it will go into meltdown (catch fire) obviously yes you dont go messing with li-ion or li-po or any other one without doing it properly. fires that have happened in electric cars have demonstrated that is very important.

A DC-DC converter will be needed to charge the 12v battery AND supply all the 12v electrics, if the only alternator is the 48v one. yes of course, i have a feeling thats what the audi has is a 48v alternator. They use a dc to dc converter to charge the 12 v battery (i think). it was clear from the diagrams it showed these components. the only thing it didn't say was if the alternator was 12v or 48v but im fairy sure it is probably 48v.

(a 12v alternator rated at 70amps is 1000watts, so 1000watt 48v one should be about the same size, but only rated at 20amps, so the DC-DC converter will need to provide 12v (14v) at potentially 30amps or more for all the 12v electrics)


5) PWM controller for the turbo
6) Interface between the engine ecu and turbo controller.

Not sure on this part thats my brother's department thats going to me processes closer to the end


so the system is looking fairly simple at the moment which is a good thing because if someone else wants to copy it they can. and if someone wants my brother to fit the same to another vehicle he should be able to do it easy enough.
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
At £1,500 and only 20% more capacity than the Fiesta one I'd suggest it's not worth pursuing.
The Audi charging system remains 12v with a DC : DC step up to charge the electric turbo battery. Note Audi also do "mild" hybrids that use a 48v motor/generator but those are only "greenwashing" in a vehicle that weight.
hmm interesting well my alternator is 150a, even the bigger engined ones use the same because its based on charging the size of battery.
M57N2 would be a far better way to spend your money.

Easy isnt worth anything.

330d 335d boring! there are no challenges in those you just buy it and tune it or buy it put readily available modifications on and map. its too boring.

also the 320d handles a lot better.
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
yeah, i dont really get the premise tbh. The stock engine has a variable vane turbo and hits full boost extremely quickly already. Sure, it doesnt make much below 1500rpm, but why are you ever trying to request full power that far down the rev range? Select the correct gear and your at 2500-3000rpm and response is instant. Its also modifying something where the solution already exists, and in the case of the E90 that solution is the 330d, or 335d for even more go.

One thing the bigger engine does, is makes the lower RPM range more flexible, simply by virtue of 50% more capacity and thus 50% more power even without any boost. If you do find yourself in the wrong gear it doesnt matter as much.

Maybe its just an age thing. I remember when i was younger, modifying cars, and always wanting to "do something different".... I did daft engine swaps that looking back now i can see made zero sense. My brother had a 320d, and we did various bits to it including injector upgrades and larger turbo etc. Most folks on the BMW forum pointed out we should have just bought a 330d. Somehow we thought we knew better... Some time later i bought myself a 330d, and immediately realised that indeed they were right. It was just better in every possible way. Not only did it make more power in a much nicer way, it had a wider power band, it was smoother, it sounded nicer etc etc. A completely stock 330d was better than that tuned 320d ever could be, and ofcourse, the 330d could easily be remapped for even more. He eventually stripped the 320d for parts because he couldnt sell it for what it was "worth" and having learned theres no replacement for displacement, bought a 130i.

Eventually i realised the common approach that i rubbished when i was younger was common because it worked and people had gotten to that point by iterating thru the other options and finding the best one.

Given how difficult its been for OEM's to get electrical turbocharging working and viable (they've been working on it for at least 20 years) I think the idea that your going to bolt such a system to an existing engine, and somehow have it work properly, is just nuts. Especially when the intention is only to provide a tiny bit of boost below 1500rpm, where you basically never should be anyway... Maybe you find the process of building the thing fun, but again, with time i've realised that jumping into something that Just Works has its benefits. If the thing you want doesnt exist, then sure, build it. But in this case, you could either fit the larger engine, or if for some strange reason you want to keep the nasty 4 cylinder, grab the twin turbo arrangement from the 123d, and get that working on your E90. At least someone with millions of pounds has engineered a solution that does actually work, and you just have to tackle the challenges of making it work with your particular car.

its not extremely quickly, furthermore there are no swirlflaps because they get taken out so as not to end up in the engine which makes the low down torque worse but it's a sacrifice people make to save potentially killing the engine. the plan is to have instant boost not have to wait for the revs to build up so the electric turbocharger will do that then the normal turbocharger will take over after that.

330d or 335d isnt a solution for me thats too boring!! anyone can buy one of those and put pre made stuff on it and boom you are done. thats very boring there is no challenge!

bigger engines make more power but the whole system is heavier. much heavier drivetrain as a whole, heavier engine etc etc.

dunno about an age thing but ive always been like this (im 43 now) i prefer to try do different things rather than copying everyone else my brother is the same. Prime example he has a 320d that is faster than any stock 330d and 335d its even faster than most modified 330d and 335d's. you can get 300hp 600+nm out of a 320d without even opening the engine but he's gone further than that. he did consider the electric turbocharger however, his 320d is a drag racing car and it would have added extra weight. when he runs that he pulls away in second gear.

i can tell you about 330d and 335d as my brother is a tuner and he specializes in them, most of his tuning work is on these so ive driven and been in many of them data logging and 9 out of 10 of these that come in for tuning have some issues that need rectifying which is a mich higher figure than 320d's. yes they go fast but as i said before its quick and easy and boring. also, those cars suffer from a hot cylinder number 6 very common because the routing of the coolant isnt good. they almost always come into my brother and the vac lines immediately need changing because they are often perished and these can cause a number of problems. there are many other little problems that these have as well which contribute to having losses in power on the top end. the 320d M engines are a far more reliable system and easier to work on.

let me tell you another story the 2.5 sounds the best better than 330d and 335d also as a side note a 320d is louder. but anyway back to the 2.5 lump, since my brother sold me this 320d he's onto his next project to drive as a daily so he has a 118d he's pulling the engine out and building a 2.5 build which as expected what his plans are is not something others have done in a 1 series. there are 130d's that were made by enthusiasts though I saw one a couple weeks ago at my brothers on the dyno that thing was savage lol.

i like the challenge and thats the main reason im doing what im doing and the fact that people get all pissy about it in some cases amuses me because they're all like just buy a 330d and im like no thats boring lol. the original aim was Volvo power pulse which has its similarities to this but it would be far more work. to put it simply compressed air gets pumped into the turbine for instant boost but that would require more space more weight more complicated system.

i am used to driving a diesel with swirl flaps and it gives that pleasing low down torque and its a very nice driving experience. but in the bmw im not prepared to run swirl flaps because it could kill the engine. so I need a better solution. while an electric turbocharger may seem crazy or whatever its a challenge which is the whole fun part of doing something like this. and because no one else has done this before as a retrofit so to speak.

as for twin-turbo from a 123d the problem still remains if I went that route I still wouldnt have the low down torque im looking for, exhaust gasses still need to spool the turbo

also as a final thing we are well into electric cars hybrids and what not so instant boost will become a standard practice I predict in the next 5 to 10 years. consumers will expect it. anything with a battery and an electric motor these days be it a fully electric vehicle or a combination of an electric side and a combustion engine side they all have instant power. and i believe this is why companies are trying to move forward like the audi sq7 theyve realized they need to compete with this sort of thing and it makes sense they first try it on a large engined more expensive car because people like to see fast cars do these things, and eventually it will get into more vehicles as time goes on.
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
You can adjust the vane linkage so the vnt makes more boost a low rpm, and with a decent remap you can hit max boost well below 2000rpm. If the remapper knows his stuff, he can also raise the boost pressure and alter the map calibration so the ecu is happy with the new boost profile.

If the performance below 2000rpm is very poor, the maf needs changing. (or the remapper can eliminate it).

The BMW 2L in the 75/ZT could be remapped to 160bhp from 113 and that engine didn't have a VNT turbo. The same engine in the Freelander TD4 which does have a vnt has reached 178bhp.
In both of those cases, I'd worry about the drive train longevity.

correct to a point you can adjust the linkage if its a vac operated turbo it has to be done on the map if its electronic. mine is electronic so its a faster response compared to a vac operated one there are tradeoffs for this sort fo thing so it depends on the individual and if they are prepared to accept them.

once the car starts spooling about 1500 rpm on mine it will spool up and rev very quickly i have a hybrid turbo as well, also it doesnt have a maf that has been mapped out it runs what it needs to off the map sensor. in any case a maf sensor has its limitations so while its useful its only upto a certain point.


many 2.0 turbo diesel bmws often badged for example 116 118 316 318 those are the same engine as the 120 320 520 variants in many cases the difference is a detuned ecu and they also run different turbo and injectors. so if you were to upgrade those to 320d versions or even better those will tune exactly like the X20 variants. my brother bought a 118dfor his project and the reasonthats a good choice even for people who want to just tune that engine is theyve had an easier life with less power. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #36 ·
Can't but think you are on the wrong forum, hint this forum is for EVs.

im in the right place i was recommended to come here the main reason for being here if you haven't figured it out is to get more information about batteries and charging systems for what im planning to do and this is one of the best places to do so. also im pretty sure there is probably some people here converting cars to electric also so that is useful as well
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
So 150A @ 14v is 2.1kW max - we are back to the duty cycle question again - how long is acceptable between electric supercharger uses to recharge the battery? Assuming that you use all 0.8kWh it'll take 24 minutes to recharge with no losses, other loads etc. Is that good enough?
yeah well i need to find that out. i hoped someone may have been able to at least estimate some things here given that ive provided the battery info from the original vehicle and i am told that the car runs on a 12v alternator but i guess whoever could do that hasnt seen this yet.

i cant really say what is good enough and what isnt i know very little about batteries and charging and discharging i was hoping to find out some more info here if not then iwill need to look elsewhere. i could try to get hold of valeo who make the turbocharger as a last resort but they might not want to give me the information. i can only ask i suppose but im waiting for the turbo to get here first so at least then i have it in my hands
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
Enjoy your ICE whilst you still can, they are very much time limited. If you want instant low down torque perhaps the Nissan e-power concept might interest you?
No, I thought not. ;)

That is quite interesting! except for the gasoline part lol. maybe something for the future though! i mean i probably got the room for a system like that im sure
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
Is there going to be any kind of electric propulsion motor on this wacky car? Sorry it's just the "wrong" forum.
only the electric turbocharger. once the car is up the rev range it has a lot of power nothing phases it even a 16% grade hill just put your foot down its almost like its not a challenge
 

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Discussion Starter · #42 ·
In what way?


Mine is perfectly capable of delivering what it does, for the rest of my life, if I keep it and maintain it. Probably won't keep it, but it could if I did.

You do realise they are not being banned from the streets in 2030, just sales will stop.

It'll also be interesting to see if sales do actually stop, or if there will be some derogation due to a complete lack of available cars and viable charging infrastructure. I suspect the latter, TBH.

The problem with the climate is the young people, like Greta. They have got us into this mess, always wanting 'more and more'. If they just stopped buying things and stopped wanting anything in life then they'd stop making this world a mess for all of us old people that already have everything we want ..... :unsure:

very well said society these days expects more more more. look at computers mobile phones and tablets people want new ones and more power all the time! doesn't help that industries provide it for them and then there is more e-waste and the cycle continues :(

As for cars while electric cars are supposed to be good there is always people with negatives about it but that's society as a whole something new and better comes out for example they bought a newer version of a car out and put in more electronics more emissions systems while its better for the environment people will complain its got this and that more to go wrong etc.

my personal opinion on electric cars is a bit different i wouldn't say no but charging would be a big problem for me where i live. as an example outside my house is a pavement people walk on and then a busy road. so unless i put a wire out frim the second floor and extended it out above where people walk and down to the car its going to be a problem because if i run it over the path it could be a tripping hazard. not to mention if peopel go past see it they might try to mess with it. so really electyric cars are not good for everyone. then there's the degradation of batteries and those things wouldn't be cheap to replace. what puts me off them in a way also is tesla dont get me started on them im sure youve heard seen and read about the stories lol.
 

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Discussion Starter · #47 ·
Not all 2L engines are the same. The cheap ones (<150bhp) don't have balancer shaft nor intake flaps) these ones were sold to Rover for the 75/ZT/Freelander TD4 and possible in the very low power BMW/Minis (122/136bhp). They are a slightly different capacity. (1950 v 1998cc I think)
depends which series we are comparing and which exact engine model for example the 118 318 M engines pre lci dont have swirl flaps that is true as i have a 318 manifold on my 320d it saves having to blank them on the original. but apart from those dreaded n engines with the chain on the wrong end most of the engines are very similar with little differences.
 
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