Speak EV - Electric Car Forums banner
1 - 20 of 26 Posts

·
Registered
Nissan Leaf 40kW Tekna
Joined
·
81 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ok, so this is aimed at potential/new owners. Pod-Point offer Type2 (43kW) and CHAdeMO (50kW) charging. I can’t be the only one who assumed type 2 would only be marginally slower than CHAdeMO? However, the Leaf has a maximum of 6.6kW through type 2 (I think). Is this the same or similar for all EVs, or just Nissan? I’m interested, because it’s something I’d consider in a few years when I change cars if, say, other makes can achieve near 43kW charging through type 2.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
783 Posts
At the risk of sounding a little dismissive...an internet search will quickly tell you what you need to know. The fundamental point is that ac charging requires the on-board charge unit in the car to rectify the input to dc suitable for charging the battery. These on-board charge units have a limited capacity. 7kW is typical, some will do 11kW from a suitable 3-phase charge point. A very small number of cars can support 22kW ac, and as far as I'm aware some models of Renault Zoe are the only ones that can charge at 43kW ac.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Neilew

·
Registered
Nissan Leaf 40kW Tekna
Joined
·
81 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Ok, so this is aimed at potential/new owners. Pod-Point offer Type2 (43kW) and CHAdeMO (50kW) charging. I can’t be the only one who assumed type 2 would only be marginally slower than CHAdeMO? However, the Leaf has a maximum of 6.6kW through type 2 (I think). Is this the same or similar for all EVs, or just Nissan? I’m interested, because it’s something I’d consider in a few years when I change cars,
At the risk of sounding a little dismissive...an internet search will quickly tell you what you need to know. The fundamental point is that ac charging requires the on-board charge unit in the car to rectify the input to dc suitable for charging the battery. These on-board charge units have a limited capacity. 7kW is typical, some will do 11kW from a suitable 3-phase charge point. A very small number of cars can support 22kW ac, and as far as I'm aware some models of Renault Zoe are the only ones that can charge at 43kW ac.
I know what your saying about all the info being available on t’interweb but there’s so much info out there that it’s impossible to take it all in. I did a couple of months reading up on specs/ranges/charge times/battery degradation/public charge points/home charge points/etc etc, but the facts that chargers don’t charge at the rate specified didn’t come up (or if it did, it didn’t sink in).
If, for example, the Zoe was equal in spec/speed/space and tec, to my Leaf Tekna, BUT had the far quicker type 2 charging capability, that would’ve swung it for me.
 

·
Registered
Tesla Model 3 LR AWD, Renault ZOE R135 ZE50 GTLine (Sold: R90 ZE40 i Dynamic Nav)
Joined
·
779 Posts
If, for example, the Zoe was equal in spec/speed/space and tec, to my Leaf Tekna, BUT had the far quicker type 2 charging capability, that would’ve swung it for me.
All ZOEs charge at close to 22kW on 3 phase AC charge points. Recent ZOEs optionally have nominal 50kW DC CCS - actually charge at about 42 to 45kW from low charge, with a warm battery.

Old Q models would use 43kWh 3 phase AC. Not available on current ZOEs.

22kW AC charging is often helpful when you find a single CCS rapid in use.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,589 Posts
I know what your saying about all the info being available on t’interweb but there’s so much info out there that it’s impossible to take it all in. I did a couple of months reading up on specs/ranges/charge times/battery degradation/public charge points/home charge points/etc etc, but the facts that chargers don’t charge at the rate specified didn’t come up (or if it did, it didn’t sink in).
If, for example, the Zoe was equal in spec/speed/space and tec, to my Leaf Tekna, BUT had the far quicker type 2 charging capability, that would’ve swung it for me.
If you own one BEV, just understand how your own car charges. If you two, understand both. Who cares how various Tesla, Zoe's etc charge unless you happen to own one.
 

·
Registered
Kia e-Niro 4 MY20, Zoe Z.E.50 GT Line
Joined
·
1,363 Posts
This can be very confusing and whilst there’s plenty of information out there it’s easy to get things wrong.

A 7kW (32A single phase) onboard charger does currently seem to be the norm and this dictates the AC charge rate on type2.

The Zoe is unusual in its ability to take so much charge current through type 2 and this is all to do with using the motor coils as inductors for the charging circuit which I believe is a unique design.

A 22kW three phase charge point is much cheaper than a CCS rapid but I suspect we’ll increasingly see either 7kW single phase points or rapid chargers.
 

·
Registered
Hyundai Ioniq 38kW EV
Joined
·
132 Posts
One of the common misconceptions are EV drivers rocking up to a Rapid charger, charging through the AC charger and wondering why they are not seeing 43kW through the charger! As mentioned above, only a handful of EVs are able to rapid charger through the 43kW AC charger - I can only think of one make (first gen Zoes). You should check out all the comments and “complaints” on ZapMap!!

As mentioned, the AC charger rate is limited to the onboard charger - most have a 7kW onboard charger, so the maximum you will see through the 43kW AC rapid charger is.... 7kW!

Note that PodPoint aren’t the only people who‘s rapids have 43kw AC charging - Polar and Ecotricity also do as well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,740 Posts
there’s so much info out there that it’s impossible to take it all in
True enough. But you are probably starting at the wrong end of choosing a car. You should narrow your options using all the normal car aspects one should consider - size, luggage capacity, seats, brand, reliability, convenient (competent) dealers, etc.

Then worry about whether any of them have a type 2 charger to die for (but they won't - it's mostly just sales guff like having 8 or 9 gears on an ICE). 7kW is ample for 99% of people now DC rapids are wide(r)spread.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
219 Posts
Why bother, all new EVs support rapid charging by DC so fast AC charging is just a hangover from the past. AC charge speeds are like high capacity DVDs, a good idea at the time but not relevant once you have fibre downloads.
 

·
Registered
Nissan Leaf 40kW Tekna
Joined
·
81 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Why bother, all new EVs support rapid charging by DC so fast AC charging is just a hangover from the past. AC charge speeds are like high capacity DVDs, a good idea at the time but not relevant once you have fibre downloads.
Unless you turn up and the DC is taken? Tbh, I’ll need to rapid charge a couple of times a year, so it’s not an issue for me.......it’s just one more thing that adds to the complexity of ev ownership. I’m 100% happy with my Leaf, but for someone dipping their toe into potential ev ownership, and reading all the ‘problems’ ie Rapidgate/batteries catching fire/various charge payment apps,rfid,payg. Ranges from WLTP-NEDC-US EPS. I know most of these aren’t actual problems, but it’s all very off putting to potential newbies.....phew, my point being that manufacturers could be clearer with what charges can/can’t be achieved. For example, filling up an ice car, on the cap it says petrol or diesel, charge sockets in the car could and should say max kW possible ie 3.6/7/22/43/50/100/150-or whatever the car will accept. All it would take would be a sticker on each socket.....or am I missing something?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
60 Posts
At the risk of sounding a little dismissive...an internet search will quickly tell you what you need to know. [...]
Yes, they could look this info up online, but there is a lot of (occasionally contradictory) information out there, and maybe they want to have a dialogue with fellow enthusiasts on this topic.

If you own one BEV, just understand how your own car charges. If you two, understand both. Who cares how various Tesla, Zoe's etc charge unless you happen to own one.
Maybe someone wants to become the local expert and recommend different e-car models to friends and family? Maybe they're an enthusiast who finds these details interesting? I don't see any value in dismissing the question, or telling them not to be interested in something that they're clearly interested in. If you don't think they should be interested in the topic, then you also have the opportunity not to read or respond to the thread.

Why bother, all new EVs support rapid charging by DC so fast AC charging is just a hangover from the past. AC charge speeds are like high capacity DVDs, a good idea at the time but not relevant once you have fibre downloads.
Because DC fast chargers are much more expensive, so some have argued that if we want much broader-based charging networks we could get them faster with inexpensive AC units, so continuing to evolve the AC technology could pay dividends. AC units are so much cheaper than DC chargers, that we could put AC units up and down entire streets for street parking for the cost of one DC charger facility (depending on the length of the street, of course). With an AC unit it's using the charger that's already in the car, with a DC unit it's all that plus a charger that's external to the car, so there's likely no scenario where a DC charger can be made as cheaply as an AC unit. AC charging a little slower everywhere, instead of DC fast charging some places, would be better for the service life of the battery too.
 

·
Registered
Kona64
Joined
·
1,700 Posts
Ufilling up an ice car, on the cap it says petrol or diesel, charge sockets in the car could and should say max kW possible ie 3.6/7/22/43/50/100/150-or whatever the car will accept. All it would take would be a sticker on each socket.....or am I missing something?
You are not missing something but what actually goes in to the car will vary from car to car and how the charger you are at is behaving at that time.
I’ve used a rapid and got 43kw from it, 2 days later 19.
some super rapids give me 72 but only when the battery state is under 58% full.
Likewise charging a car whose battery is quite full will give a low rate.

And then it depends if you are using a supermarket 7kw post, a home 13amp plug etc.

So, too many variables to give a simple straight answer.
I think though you are asking mfgS to standardise what they say into a statement like
Home: 7kw. 50k Rapid 45kw. 100+ Superrapid 75kw all when at 50% soc
 

·
Registered
Nissan Leaf 40kW Tekna
Joined
·
81 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
You are not missing something but what actually goes in to the car will vary from car to car and how the charger you are at is behaving at that time.
Sorry, I don’t think I made it clear. What I meant was not the stated rate of charge on the ‘pump’, but on the actual car, so that you can see instantly what your particular cars maximum charge can be. So a sticker on my Leaf would say 50kW (Max)) on the CHAdeMO, and 6.6kW (Max) on the type 2. Then, maybe a 3rd sticker underneath both inlets saying that any higher capacity chargers (that fit) are safe to plug in, but charge rates will be as above.....(there must be a less long-winded way to say this though😉)
Then (assuming standardisation on all evs) every ev owner would know, with the simple lifting of a flap, what’s the most charge their cars can accept.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,448 Posts
Sorry, I don’t think I made it clear. What I meant was not put the rate of charge on the ‘pump’, but on the actual car, so that you can see instantly what your particular cars maximum charge can be. So my Leaf would say 50kW (Max)) on the CHAdeMO, and 6.6kW (Max) on the type 2. Then, maybe a 3rd sticker underneath both inlets saying that any higher capacity chargers (that fit) are safe to plug in, but charge rates will be as above.....(there must be a less long-winded way to say this though😉)
Then (assuming standardisation on all evs) every ev owner would know, with the simple lifting of a flap, what’s the most charge their cars can accept.
With CCS stickers aren't really viable as it is a combo connector. I guess a picture on inside of flap of a Type 2 plug and "7kW max" next to it and a CCS plug and "100kW max" might help, but lots of buyers don't even seem to understand what kW are.

But if people were given a simple A4 sheet "How to charge your car" this wouldn't be necessary. It could be tailored to a car model by the dealership, but most new cars are almost identical in terms of cables, just slightly different rates. This is something the SMMT should do for the industry, rather than constantly harp on that ICE shouldn't be banned.

AC charging isn't going away as is the only viable way to charge at home - which is a huge benefit of EVs. I suspect we will see more cars with 22kW capability as there is already a trend to offer 11kW. 22kW adds a decent amount of range at a medium dwell location, such as restaurants, cinema, theatre, shopping, etc. For example, we got a decent charge at Resort World near NEC while having lunch and doing some shopping a while ago.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
783 Posts
Yes, they could look this info up online, but there is a lot of (occasionally contradictory) information out there, and maybe they want to have a dialogue with fellow enthusiasts on this topic.
No offence intended...and I did go on to detail the key factor (on-board charger capability). I didn't think there was value in listing a large number of different car sales and their maximum ac charge rate when this information is readily available.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
60 Posts
No offence intended...and I did go on to detail the key factor (on-board charger capability). I didn't think there was value in listing a large number of different car sales and their maximum ac charge rate when this information is readily available.
Without question, your reply was indeed one of the most detailed and useful in the whole thread! :)

To the OP's question, the 2020 and new Kia Soul EV is 7.2 KWh max for AC charging.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
32 Posts
This has good data on each EV's charge rate (AC and DC)


Though I'm not sure max AC is that relevant, when most public high-power chargers are DC / CCS, and most people only use AC at home (or at destination chargers).
 

·
Registered
Kona64
Joined
·
1,700 Posts
@PedalPowerPanther - I think we were on the same page, I did mean mfg info about the car ability.

So, if all the manafacturers used the asme list in a same style table, then it would be easy to understand and compare different vehicles.
Here's the UK Kia Soul one (which you have probably found yourself already )

(PS It doesn't mean it can drink at 100kw, just they use it to show how faster it would be to charge if you used one -- whilst they say type 2 AC "charging up to 7.2kw, they then don't list the same value for DC max rate )

137556
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
11,863 Posts
This is from memory. I may have missed a few.

3-phase AC capable EVs sold in the UK

Renault Zoe with Q motor made by Continental 43kW AC
Renault Zoe - all other models 22kW AC
LEVC TX 22kW AC (London Taxi)
LEVC VN-5 Van 22kW optional
Tesla Model S before May 2016 11kW or 22kW AC depending on configuration
Tesla Model S / X 16.5kW AC
Tesla Model 3 11kW AC
Audi eTron 50 / 55 11kW AC
BMW i3 LCI 2018- 11kW AC
Fiat 500e 11kW AC
Ford Mustang Mach-e 11kW AC
Mercedes B250e 11kW AC
Current PSA group EVs 11kW AC optional. Check individual models for details.

11kW might be optional on some of the large battery Korean EVs. I don't remember.
 
1 - 20 of 26 Posts
Top