Speak EV - Electric Car Forums banner

1 - 20 of 70 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
67 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Woke up this morning to find the MS not in the drive! Charger was laying on the ground and the car is gone.

Trying to use the app to find the location but when I launch the app, it says last update (within the app) was yesterday so still shows the car parked int he drive!

How can I disable the car remotely?

What else can I do? (Apart from speaking with the police and calling the insurers)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,815 Posts
Woke up this morning to find the MS not in the drive! Charger was laying on the ground and the car is gone.

Trying to use the app to find the location but when I launch the app, it says last update (within the app) was yesterday so still shows the car parked int he drive!

How can I disable the car remotely?

What else can I do? (Apart from speaking with the police and calling the insurers)
Do you have the keys?

If you call Tesla support they may be able to help.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
979 Posts
Ring Tesla immediately. They can trace the car (as long as the 12v battery has not been disconnected). You will need to give them the crime number.
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
9,719 Posts
Its only low level but this is the 3rd report I have seen online in as many weeks, folks with Model S turn off passive entry in settings. Model X uses bluetooth so **might** be more secure against these apparent replay attacks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,636 Posts
Sorry to hear about the theft. Hopefully it will sorted by the insurance pretty quickly. Not sure why Tesla and others do not use more secure systems that have been around for years. One I looked into for a company years ago was the Microchip KEELOQ cheap and easy to implement.

Richard
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
9,719 Posts
One I looked into for a company years ago was the Microchip KEELOQ cheap and easy to implement.
As with most Software companies, Tesla suffers equal parts not built here syndrome, and every new project must reinvent the wheel because we can do it better this time.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,815 Posts
As with most Software companies, Tesla suffers equal parts not built here syndrome, and every new project must reinvent the wheel because we can do it better this time.
Just like SpaceX - why can’t they do it like NASA has always done it and throw away the rockets!

Innovation really grinds my gears!
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
9,719 Posts
Innovation really grinds my gears!
How is throwing away most of your engineering and software experience to build the "mass market" vehicle innovation, you have to run at a thousand miles an hour just to get back to where you were - that is not innovation.

I specifically said Tesla (and its not really isolated its any company professing some sort of software engineering discipline), SpaceX doesn't nearly suffer these sorts of problems - mostly because it appears to be driven by academic engineers rather than software "engineers" (I use the term very loosely)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,815 Posts
How is throwing away most of your engineering and software experience to build the "mass market" vehicle innovation, you have to run at a thousand miles an hour just to get back to where you were - that is not innovation.

I specifically said Tesla (and its not really isolated its any company professing some sort of software engineering discipline), SpaceX doesn't nearly suffer these sorts of problems - mostly because it appears to be driven by academic engineers rather than software "engineers" (I use the term very loosely)
I’m sure all of their experienced automotive production engineers instantly forgot all of their experience as soon as they walked in the front door of Tesla.

Where do you get that Tesla is just made up of software engineers - have you actually looked at the CVs of most of their employees?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,862 Posts
One I looked into for a company years ago was the Microchip KEELOQ cheap and easy to implement.
I thought KEELOQ was notorious for having been cracked (and because it was widely used in a common implementation, one crack broke all of them).

There's no indication Tesla's cryptography has been cracked. Indeed, the one black mark against them is that they have used the same keyless entry approach as all the other manufacturers and so suffer the same relay attacks, when they could have engineered something secure against relay (which has long been known as a theoretical flaw, the only change in recent months is that the thieves have got their act together to exploit it).
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
9,719 Posts
Where do you get that Tesla is just made up of software engineers
Built by silicone valley for silicon valley, you hire in some car people but the culture has long been set and driven by Capt Musk.
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
9,719 Posts
It should also be mentioned there is a easy workaround fix for passive entry in the short term.
- If car locked by key click only opens by key click.

That should mitigate many of the relay attack scenarios.

I'd also think it would be an idea to review MFA on the app.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,636 Posts
I thought KEELOQ was notorious for having been cracked (and because it was widely used in a common implementation, one crack broke all of them).
Not sure I have not looked at it in depth for some time now but it does use encryption and time/count based methods to prevent (what we think) is a record/replay the last keyfob transmission to the car.

"KeeLoq structure such as industry standard AES-128 block cipher, programmable 32-bit serial number, programmable 128- bit encryption key and KeeLoq Secure Learn Mode (128-bit Seed). It incorporates a timer driven messages counter which continuously increments, independent of events, to provide a better, more secure solution. The time-keeping functionality provides additional protection against capture and replay attack techniques."

Nothing is uncrackable it just makes it more problematic for the thief.

Richard
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,862 Posts
(what we think) is a record/replay the last keyfob transmission to the car.
Is that what we think? I thought the issue was with relaying in real-time to extend the effective range of the fob - typically with directional antennas pointed through the window/letterbox or whatever to bring the keyfob inside the house within range of the car parked on the driveway outside.

The related attack of capturing the signals and transmitting them across internet or whatever to unlock a car a long way away from the fob is relatively easy to defeat, but extending the range of the existing radio by a few metres using simple analogue/RF techniques is much harder. Unfortunately, the switch to bluetooth on M3 probably makes this worse (as they no longer have control of the hardware at both ends and so adding something to give nanosecond-resolution measurement of the round-trip time is probably infeasible).

Turning off keyless entry, or keeping your keyfob in a tin box rather than on the hall table, seem like the only options for the current generation of hardware (on all cars with keyless entry, not just Tesla)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,520 Posts
It has been mentioned on the owners FB group that seven Model S have been stolen from the London area this year.

Most (not all) of these cars have been taken by people who have managed to get the key through the letterbox.

I imagine that a relay attack wouldn't be so useful (unless the thieves are pro and have a flatbed nearby), because as soon as the car goes into park, it will stop with "key not present".
 
1 - 20 of 70 Posts
Top