[BillTheButcher]

After a couple of very unpleasant months commuting in a Suzuki Swift, I've decided that I need to increase the budget and get back into an EV.

I've got an absolute maximum budget of £20k. The most important considerations are reliability, range, comfort and maintenance costs (in that order).

The two cars that seem to most closely fit the bill are:

1. Renault Zoe R135 52kWh (Rapid Charge)
Pros: range; infotainment; Renault dealership is closer to me
Cons: reliability; the dealership may be closer but the staff are ****

2. Nissan Leaf 40kWh
Pros: more comfortable at motorway speeds; reliability (although a few surveys I found online said otherwise)
Cons: range; infotainment; dealership is miles away; CHAdeMO

Edited to add: must have climate control, cruise control (normal or adaptive) and folding mirrors.

Any and all advice and suggestions welcome.

 

[BillTheButcher]

Wait a couple of months and for that budget you will be able to get a used Tesla.

😄

I noticed that AU Model 3s have started dipping below £30k now...

On a more serious note, how about the eGolf? As you did not specify range...
I'm not sure what could be found second hand though...

Sorry, I forgot to give numbers: I'm looking for 150+ miles. I think the eGolf does about 100, doesn't it?

Ioniq 38 (2020 onwards) can be had between 18-20K and still be carrying 2-2.5 years Hyundai warranty.

I had one of those on lease. Very good car but I'd prefer to get something I haven't had before.

Does the Zoe have 22kW charging capability and does it have battery leasing.

The Leaf probably has CHAdeMO charging which is becoming rarer.

I'm only looking at Zoes that are battery-owned with Rapid Charge.

I forgot to put CHAdeMO in the Leaf's cons list. I won't need to public charge very often but it's definitely a consideration.

You went from Ioniq38 on lease didn't you? How about 2020 models with 20kish on the clock coming in now at 18.5k? Maybe wait a few months and they might drop more with more of these 2-3 year leases coming off.

You know where you are with one of those!

Well remembered. The Ioniq 38 is a very sensible suggestion but, if at all possible, I'd prefer to get something I haven't already had.

 

[BillTheButcher]

Is app access and remote pre conditioning or lack thereof a deal breaker?? If not then first shape MG5 is worth a look. They're just under the £20k.

Not fussed about either of those. MG5's a good shout. I'll have a look at them.

It's definitely CHAdeMO.
Not a problem if you plan routes sensibly. Most major charging networks support Chademo and are still installing ChaDEMO connectors on new chargers. I think Ionity may be the only one that doesn't.

 

[BillTheButcher]

Ioniq 38 is probably best for those, Leaf not far behind and probably the best understood and supported car once you're out of warranty.

I found the Zoe had a really unpleasant crashy ride. MG ZS or MG5 might be worth a look too, they're holding up well.

My initial preference was definitely the Leaf, purely because of the (perceived?) reliability.

The CHAdeMO plugs seems to be becoming more common now. I'm seeing quite a few at supermarkets and petrol stations (although getting the chargers to work is another matter).

Interesting. I thought it was going the way of Betamax.

My car before Ioniq was an eGolf, 100-110 in winter and 140-150 in summer. Preferred it as a car to the Ioniq...

You can't beat that efficiency though, it does make you smile knowing you get 200 range out of it in summer

You're right. The Ioniq has a lot to recommend it.

I saw your title and immediately thought Zoe, Leaf, MG or Ioniq.

Wouldnt worry about Chademo Vs CCS for rapid charging, all the rapid chargers I stop at have one or more Chademo and often they are the only one available.

 

[BillTheButcher]

We really like our Zoe - but our driving is nearly all pootling around town. Be warned, our 20 plate 52kWh gives only about 160 miles when temps are low like now.

Renault should be sued for calling the charger 50kW. The most I have ever seen is 42kW and most often it seems to be around the mid 30s. I see a time when Zoe are put to the back of the queue begind all the newer 150kW capable vehicles

Interesting.

Im bias but eGolf? Fantastic car but maybe a bit short in the range department (140 summer 110 winter)

I've had several ICE Golfs and got on well with all of them. I'd assumed the eGolf's range would be worse than that.

VW e-Up? For £20k it will be pretty much a new car.

I did this commute in an Up GTI for a while. I'd put the Up in the same category as the Suzuki Swift: great little cars but not really designed or built for motorway commuting.

Leaf 40 is 110 mile car in winter. Reliability is questionable with the battery failures on them. It's nicely built but the charging speed is pants as well. The MG5 will last a lot longer I suspect.

As I mentioned in my first post, I've found a few reports and surveys online that question the Leaf's (and Nissan's) reliability.

Surely the eGolf is undoubtedly the most economical, we have just sold ours and its sitting for sale in the Isle of White. 150miles summer easily, it left our house last week and completed 98miles to the I-O-W and still had 50miles remaining, so even in the depths of winter it has a decent range!

That's really useful information. After reading your and Jimlad's posts, I need to have a closer look at the eGolf. VW dealer is just down the road from me, as well.

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there you go

Nice one.

You won't get 150+ miles from a 40kWh LEAF - at least not most of the time. In Winter it would be closer to 100 and could be less in really bad conditions. The furthest I drove without charging mine was 126 miles at 50 - 65mph in the Summer and I think I finished with about 10% so could have done 140. I think only the 38kWh Ioniq, the MG 5 or the 50kWh Zoe would manage 150 miles most of the time and be within your budget.

I could live with 140 but 100 is not good at all.

 

[BillTheButcher]

Thanks very much, everyone; I really appreciate all of the replies.

+1 for eGolf. Nicer place to be than either Zoe or LEAF. Some models can rapid charge on CCS so you can drive from Cornwall to John o' Groats if you want to stop every 2 hrs.

How long is your commute?

Commute is 30 miles each way.

Just realised something that I forgot to mention that might put the MG5 out of budget: I need climate control, cruise control and folding mirrors (the car will be garaged). I think that means I'd need the Exclusive trim level (for climate and mirrors) which would put it over £20k.

 

[BillTheButcher]

My old eGolf is at Snow's Newport IOW if you want to take a look. Low mileage with all the extra's (bar heat pump)

A bit far from me but thanks.

All is not lost!

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Good find. Not available to buy online and it's over 500 miles away. I'll see if I can find one a bit closer to home to have a look at.

 

[BillTheButcher]

I can say they are 120 max in summer at high speeds, and the e-Golf works weirdly that it starts pre-turtling around 20/25% (can't remember off hand) by reducing performance before slipping into eco mode and nerfing the top speed so you can't even do 70. I had this happen to me a motorway junction before I needed to come off and charge when I had my e-Golf and you are old school Leafing it along behind trucks when that happens.

Also unless the one you get has a heat pump the GOM will drop the range a fair chunk depending on temp / fan speed you put the heat on in the car.

I'd say (as an approximate) they are about 25-30% less efficient than an Ioniq 38 in all weathers.

The bit I've emboldened made me chuckle. 😄

I have a mate in a very similar position to you who is going through a list of all of your own usual suspect cars using a pro and con process. One thing he mentioned that I hadn't considered was over the Chademo conflict. I had expressed the view that it wasn't really an issue as there would be many Chad plugs around for some time. And that he would rarely be using Rapids anyway. But he said that it could become a larger issue over the few years that he intended to keep this next car because when he came to sell on, buyers might be even more reluctant to buy a car with a Chademo socket and it could limit his market and cause a low value. On reflection, if he is thinking this way at this stage then he may be right about that effect being troublesome in four years time. Whatever will happen he has crossed the Leaf off his list.

I'd be lying if I said CHAdeMO wasn't putting me off the Leaf. It's a bit daft really because I've got a home charger and I'll rarely need to use public chargers at all. But I'm trying to cover everything before I make a decision. The Swift was an expensive mistake that I don't want to repeat.

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with climate and cruise control, under 1000 miles and 500 pounds deposit contribution!

The Zoe is really tempting. I test drove a GT Line last year. It drove well and I liked the infotainment but it didn't feel particularly well built and Renault never seem to do very well in reliability surveys.

Used market guaranteed to experience EV oversupply this year resulting from 2020 lease ends. Few used buyers want s/h EVs, low demand = softer prices.

View attachment 171732​

If you can bear it, spend two more unpleasant months commuting in that Swift whereupon bargains will be plentiful

I'm being a drama queen. It's not that bad. My wife wants me to get rid of the Swift as soon as possible but it definitely looks like it might be worth hanging on for a bit.

If you don't want the Ioniq 38 at 210 miles summer 180 winter (what I get - regular 160 mile winter drive & always 20+ miles in GOM when I arrive) but you don'r want the same car again, try the Ioniq 28! It will do 160 miles summer 120 winter, and has several benefits over the 38!

1) Quite a bit cheaper - what's not to like?
2) Rock solid batteries with low degradation reported. Some early 38s are undergoing batttery recall-&-swap at the mo, mine's due in appx 2 weeks time. Needs a VIN check if considering 2019 or early-mid 2020 builds. Otoh a new battery is a nice-to-have! 28s no such issues.
3) Properly air-cooled, so none of the present Coolant Fluid swap hassles that are starting to affect the 38s around now - mines showing signs of this problem. Am negotiating with my dealer to synchronise the Battery sawp plus a Coolant flush-and-swap to be done all at the same time. Hyundai seem to have changed theit coolant formula twice in last few months - now on version 3 "pink" stuff we believe. Will be a well-sorted car when all this is done, but it's all a bit topsy-turvy at the mo'. Not a reason to avoid the 38, just a lifetime glitch in process of being sorted.
4) Coolant changes at year 4 are pricey - appx £350 on top of usual service! Poss even more at year 6, tho haven't investigated this myself. 28 doesn use coolant for battery, so should be far cheaper.
5) Faster charging! Mine's maxing out around 33kW in this cold weather, 46 in summer up to 53% SOC, then drops to 33kW. 28 fills at 67 kW to about 67% SOC before dropping. (Might be slower in winter?)

Drawbacks of 28 over 38? 45 miles less range, less wty remaining, can't set an AC charge limit so it always tries to go to 100% SOC, smaller central screen. Can't think of anything else.
But if the range is ok, and you're happy to Rapid fll on longer trips, the 28's a cracker.
I chose the 38 as wanted to do my regular 160 mile winter trip non-stop, else I'd have bought a 28.

I know I should really just get a 38 but but but... I want something different. 🙈

I tend to think, generally speaking, anyone with £20k in their pocket would be unwise to spend it on any used EV right now - save a little more and soon enough a used Tesla will be obtainable.

Exceptions mostly being if you really need a hatchback, never do long journeys or are excessively worried about reliability.

I would say that I am excessively worried about reliability... One of the main reasons for getting the Swift was Suzuki's reliability record. I was so focussed on it, in fact, that it never occurred to me that a 1.0 turbo wouldn't be very economical at motorway speeds. 😑

Also, the cheapest AU Teslas are already £10k over-budget; and they're the lunar mileage, scruffy examples.

 

[BillTheButcher]

I don't get that. No-one is scrapping Chademo rapid chargers. Just because a few charge point operators (CPOs) are installing CCS-only chargers, does not mean that there will be any fewer Chademo chargers than there are today. If anything, it reduces the demand on the twin CCS / Chademo chargers making it easier for us Leaf owners to get a rapid charge. Maybe the number of Chademo sites will not grow as fast as CCS, but they will not reduce. Not until we see CPOs pulling Chademo chargers out of the ground should we start to get worried.

I know, I know. As I said, it's daft.

What sort of range do you get from your Leaf?

 

[BillTheButcher]

I had a 2013 Swift Sport (1.6 N/A 6spd manual) - one of the sweetest handling cars I've had and reasonably long 6th gear for motorway hauling....

....but the mpg gauge was a liar: 44mpg on screen was more like 35-36mpg when calculated.

In summer my ZS LR probably has better range!

A sixth gear would help with the motorway drone; mine's only got five. I'm keeping track of the fuel economy manually. So far, the onboard gauge has been accurate to within 0.1 of an MPG.

If anyone is seriously waiting for Teslas to be 20k…..they're in for a long wait
This anticipated “glut” will be absolutely swallowed

And in the REAL WORLD of people buying cars in dealerships, I can assure people it is NOT currently a “buyer’s market”.

I'm not holding out for Tesla values to drop. I know that they're not within reach.

 

[BillTheButcher]

I'd just like to say how impressed I am with the responses so far. Thank you all.

I know all/most/some of you must be thinking, "We could have told you that the Swift was the wrong car, you... [insert expletive]."

 

[BillTheButcher]

May I through something so far not mentioned in the mix, The Vauxhall Corsa -E - 45Kwh Battery usable - However would be pushing it to get 150 winter miles, probably closer to 120 miles - there are lots of examples on Autotrader at sub £20K.

I have no experience of this vehicle, so could be pants but worth investigating, surely.

I test drove a Corsa-e last year. ev-database says it'll do 170 miles which is more than enough for me. I'm wary of Vauxhall's reputation for reliability, though.

It looks like there are a few Peugeot e208s under 20K now as well. The same platform as the Corsa-E but with a nicer interior and appearance (in my opinion). You might get more kit for your money with a Corsa-E.

I test drove an e-208 not longer after the Corsa-e. Yes, the interior was a lot nicer but, again, Peugeot's reported reliability has never been a strong point.

None of the new R135 ZOEs have battery lease. It’s now part of the purchase cost.

I would go for the ZOE, I’ve had no issues at all with reliability in 25,000 miles (other than teething in the first few months). At the moment the range is 140 miles cold soaked in -° temperatures and from 220-240 miles during the summer.

Agree on that. I’ve had a ZOE50 for over two years in subscription and only reason I’m thinking getting something different second hand is out of boredom. It’s difficult to compete with ZOE prices right now, I’d look at GT line with winter pack (heated seats).

great size, fits everywhere and although CCS charging is slo, it’s very efficient to make up for it.

Thanks, both. Good to hear some positive feedback about the Zoe's reliability. It's looking like the top runner at the moment.

Well there are Teslas M3 for sale 3.5 years old for <25k but not many. Most are 25-30k at that age
and they have a few months warranty left on the cars
There are a similar number of 64kw KiaNiro around at 25-30k, but of course they have over 3 years warranty left
I believe that is important for a used ev buyer
But sub 20k ( lest we forget, that was the brief here) the Zoe is hard to beat, unless the NCAP “issue” is troubling for you….then surely its an Ioniq 38

Not bothered about the NCAP thing.

Reliability is the number one consideration though - and the Zoe and especially the Ioniq don’t fair well, at least according to WhatCar. Surprised me a little.

If it were me, I’d bide my time, save a bit more, watch the market and see what else comes within my growing budget in the coming months.

The Ioniq's position in the WhatCar list surprised me as well. I didn't have any major issues in the two years I had one. Apart from the REFILL COOLANT message (that I only had once), the worst thing was the glitchy infotainment. Apart from that, it was solid.

On the other hand it is becoming common for rapid charging facilities that do offer ChaDeMo to have only a single ChaDeMo bay and that bay is shared with CCS. If that bay is blocked you’re out of luck.

If you own a ChaDeMo car I wouldn’t sweat too much and certainly this is no reason to quickly sell your car. However I wouldn’t recommend anyone buy a ChaDeMo car if they’re planning to rapid-charge.

I'd estimate that 95% of my charging will be at home so ChaDeMo's not that big an issue. That said, if I can't decide between the Leaf and a second car, and the second car has CCS, I wouldn't choose the Leaf.

 

[BillTheButcher]

If it looks like things will change in my favour, I wouldn't mind hanging on for a bit. My wife, on the other hand, wants the Suzuki gone as soon as possible. She thinks it's a deathtrap.

 

[BillTheButcher]

If a Swift is considered a death trap, how would a Zoe be thought of…?

Good question. 😄 She wasn't with me when I test drove the Zoe...

The Zoe felt much more sturdily-constructed than the Swift. Unlike my wife, I don't believe that the Swift is actually unsafe; I think it just feels that way, especially when you're on the motorway.

I assume this is warm weather range as well! 😬

These are the figures they've got for the Corsa-e:

And for the Zoe:

 

[BillTheButcher]

Although in the end I hated our Zoe 50 due to the infotainment going all stupid, and the local dealer losing my faith in them, the car was actually quite nice to live with - didn't feel too small, and the distance to empty figure always brought a smile to my face.

What happened to the infotainment?

The local Renault dealership is staffed by a bunch of arseclowns. If I do get a Zoe, I think I'd have to drive further afield rather than deal with them.

 

[BillTheButcher]

Deleted - I can't stop myself worrying about the money my Niro is losing - and then writing about it !!

I read it before you deleted it. Ouch, is all I can say.

 

[BillTheButcher]

VW e-Up!

Or save a couple of grand and get the Seat Mii

I think the e-Up was suggested earlier in this thread. I did this same commute in my old Up GTI for a while. Based on that experience, I'd put the Up (and the Mii) in the same category as the Swift: great little cars but not designed or built for motorway use.

 

[BillTheButcher]

I sold one of these for £17000...

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That is

I had a JDM Impreza wagon for a while. It sounded glorious but the battery kept going flat.

I'd do some extensive due diligence on these before making an offer, one of the images shows a car that has over 80,000 miles and they say the ones they have don't go above 30K! This is clearly from a 40kWh Leaf given the range shown unless driven like you stole it.

Does that say 132 miles on almost 100% charge?

 

[BillTheButcher]

I knew the RB320 would be worth something in future but my commute went from 5 miles each way to 35 miles each way so I needed a boring diesel and didn't have space or money for both...

I used to commute by train (hence a relatively-long history of silly and/but excellent petrol cars) but after all of the lockdowns were lifted, there wasn't a train early enough for me any more.

 

[BillTheButcher]

Another vote for Zoe here. I’ve had 3 and covered approx. 50,000 miles overall. 1 major fault with the first (22kWh battery lease) but ZE40 and current ZE50 GT-Line rapid charge have been reliable apart from intermittent reversing camera fault. Good range, decent comfort and 5 year warranty (on pre- 2023 cars). I’m awaiting delivery of a Niro EV in the next month or so but the only reason for my change is the need for more space in the back (grandchildren getting longer legs). Personally I think the Zoe is hard to beat for value v overall package.
Good luck with your search.

Thank you. It's really good to hear from Zoe and Leaf owners.

There are a lot of 2020/21 GT Line Rapid Charge cars within budget.