Most economical and reliable used EV for £20k

6449 Views 127 Replies 41 Participants Last post by Stinsy, 4 mo ago

BillTheButcher

Discussion Starter · 5 mo ago (Edited)

After a couple of very unpleasant months commuting in a Suzuki Swift, I've decided that I need to increase the budget and get back into an EV.

I've got an absolute maximum budget of £20k. The most important considerations are reliability, range, comfort and maintenance costs (in that order).

The two cars that seem to most closely fit the bill are:

1. Renault Zoe R135 52kWh (Rapid Charge)
Pros: range; infotainment; Renault dealership is closer to me
Cons: reliability; the dealership may be closer but the staff are ****

2. Nissan Leaf 40kWh
Pros: more comfortable at motorway speeds; reliability (although a few surveys I found online said otherwise)
Cons: range; infotainment; dealership is miles away; CHAdeMO

Edited to add: must have climate control, cruise control (normal or adaptive) and folding mirrors.

Any and all advice and suggestions welcome.

61 - 80 of 128 Posts

GOSPORT DAVE

· #61 · 5 mo ago

The problem with CHAdeMO vehicles is that they are being left behind in the "speed of Charge" stakes - for example most LEAF's charge at 45Kw's max. While CCS vehicles charge much quicker where 100Kw's is the average normal.

When long queues form at chargers, service providers will not want to see CHAdeMo vehicles hogging the chargers for twice the time that CCS vehicle take as it will hit their revenue and pee off those waiting in the queue to use the CCS.

By stealth they will quietly disable the CHAdeMO heads to deter CHAdeMO users.

I have already seen this on a couple of charge Genie's in my local area.

Reactions: 4

GarryL

· #62 · 5 mo ago

People's Front of Judea said:
No, relatively speaking there will be loads. March 2020 was an EV sales record. Many of those 20-plate cars will soon be at the end of three year agreements.

Perhaps it was at the time, but February and, especially, April were very bad. Still, the overall trend, then and now, was and is steeply upwards for BEVs.

Reactions: 1

John RB

· #63 · 5 mo ago

GOSPORT DAVE said:
The problem with CHAdeMO vehicles is that they are being left behind in the "speed of Charge" stakes - for example most LEAF's charge at 45Kw's max. While CCS vehicles charge much quicker where 100Kw's is the average normal.

When long queues form at chargers, service providers will not want to see CHAdeMo vehicles hogging the chargers for twice the time that CCS vehicle take as it will hit their revenue and pee off those waiting in the queue to use the CCS.

By stealth they will quietly disable the CHAdeMO heads to deter CHAdeMO users.

I have already seen this on a couple of charge Genie's in my local area.

The Zoe is CCS and yet incredibly slow to charge on a rapid

Reactions: 1

GarryL

· #64 · 5 mo ago

GOSPORT DAVE said:
The problem with CHAdeMO vehicles is that they are being left behind in the "speed of Charge" stakes - for example most LEAF's charge at 45Kw's max. While CCS vehicles charge much quicker where 100Kw's is the average normal.

When long queues form at chargers, service providers will not want to see CHAdeMo vehicles hogging the chargers for twice the time that CCS vehicle take as it will hit their revenue and pee off those waiting in the queue to use the CCS.

By stealth they will quietly disable the CHAdeMO heads to deter CHAdeMO users.

I have already seen this on a couple of charge Genie's in my local area.

First time I've heard that one. I find it hard to believe that charger providers would deliberately lose customers in this way. (Although I suppose, if they've tried all the other ways already...)

My Leaf charges at up to 70 kW, which is still more than most chargers can manage, but on the newer ones I can get a full speed charge. MFG are the best I've found so far. They often fit 8 chargers in a row, all with both CCS and Chademo.

Reactions: 1

sean1001

· #65 · 5 mo ago

It looks like there are a few Peugeot e208s under 20K now as well. The same platform as the Corsa-E but with a nicer interior and appearance (in my opinion). You might get more kit for your money with a Corsa-E.

Reactions: 2

GOSPORT DAVE

· #66 · 5 mo ago

GarryL said:
First time I've heard that one. I find it hard to believe that charger providers would deliberately lose customers in this way. (Although I suppose, if they've tried all the other ways already...)

My Leaf charges at up to 70 kW, which is still more than most chargers can manage, but on the newer ones I can get a full speed charge. MFG are the best I've found so far. They often fit 8 chargers in a row, all with both CCS and Chademo.

Yep, I have had 69Kw, a few times but for some reason my 62 seems to favour 51Kw for some reason, probably all to do with battery temperature and SoC, I guess.

Reactions: 2

Dion Rust

· #67 · 5 mo ago

richtrash said:
Does the Zoe have 22kW charging capability and does it have battery leasing.

None of the new R135 ZOEs have battery lease. It’s now part of the purchase cost.

I would go for the ZOE, I’ve had no issues at all with reliability in 25,000 miles (other than teething in the first few months). At the moment the range is 140 miles cold soaked in -° temperatures and from 220-240 miles during the summer.

Reactions: 1

Edinburgh 2000

· #68 · 5 mo ago

ShouldIBuyaUsedLeaf said:
They're still selling new LEAFs, and the relevant chargers are reducing in number,

Do you have any examples of Chademo chargers actually being decommissioned and taken out of service?

Reactions: 1

ShouldIBuyaUsedLeaf

· #69 · 5 mo ago

Edinburgh 2000 said:
Do you have any examples of Chademo chargers actually being decommissioned and taken out of service?

See post 57, turns out they're actually increasing, although they're being outpaced by CCS. Need some data on LEAF numbers to cross reference and confirm # of relevant chargers per 1000 cars.

Reactions: 1

Gavztheouch

· #70 · 5 mo ago

It might not be long before a 64kwh niro/kona/soul will be under 20k. I think the original 2019 64kwh versions are vastly over priced especially with the current dip in price of other evs and age of these vehicles. Although battery’s are predicted to last across the whole fleet there will be failures and if your warranty is getting shorter surely prices will have to fall to reflect the increased odds that something expensive will go bang.

Reactions: 1

alegar

· #71 · 5 mo ago

Dion Rust said:
None of the new R135 ZOEs have battery lease. It’s now part of the purchase cost.

I would go for the ZOE, I’ve had no issues at all with reliability in 25,000 miles (other than teething in the first few months). At the moment the range is 140 miles cold soaked in -° temperatures and from 220-240 miles during the summer.

Agree on that. I’ve had a ZOE50 for over two years in subscription and only reason I’m thinking getting something different second hand is out of boredom. It’s difficult to compete with ZOE prices right now, I’d look at GT line with winter pack (heated seats).

great size, fits everywhere and although CCS charging is slo, it’s very efficient to make up for it.

Reactions: 2

shikoku14

· #72 · 5 mo ago (Edited)

Gavztheouch said:
It might not be long before a 64kwh niro/kona/soul will be under 20k. I think the original 2019 64kwh versions are vastly over priced especially with the current dip in price of other evs and age of these vehicles. Although battery’s are predicted to last across the whole fleet there will be failures and if your warranty is getting shorter surely prices will have to fall to reflect the increased odds that something expensive will go bang.

I feel like a combination of the battery size (and inherent value of that battery) and in the case of the Kia’s the balance of the seven year warranty is holding them artificially high. On the inside EVs podcast last week Martyn made the point that for all EVs there must be a floor point for each car based on the value of the battery, if you extrapolate the cost of say what 10kWh of home storage currently costs.

However that all said, given the number of e-niros/konas running around will we be seeing an influx of them coming off lease like has happened to Tesla M3 and Ioniq 38s the latter of which seemed to exclusively be cheap leases and a subsequent price adjustment.

Reactions: 1

Cheshirecat

· #73 · 5 mo ago

Well there are Teslas M3 for sale 3.5 years old for <25k but not many. Most are 25-30k at that age
and they have a few months warranty left on the cars
There are a similar number of 64kw KiaNiro around at 25-30k, but of course they have over 3 years warranty left
I believe that is important for a used ev buyer
But sub 20k ( lest we forget, that was the brief here) the Zoe is hard to beat, unless the NCAP “issue” is troubling for you….then surely its an Ioniq 38

Reactions: 2

Bill N

· #74 · 5 mo ago

Reliability is the number one consideration though - and the Zoe and especially the Ioniq don’t fair well, at least according to WhatCar. Surprised me a little.

If it were me, I’d bide my time, save a bit more, watch the market and see what else comes within my growing budget in the coming months.

Reactions: 1

GarryL

· #75 · 5 mo ago

ShouldIBuyaUsedLeaf said:
See post 57, turns out they're actually increasing, although they're being outpaced by CCS. Need some data on LEAF numbers to cross reference and confirm # of relevant chargers per 1000 cars.

Although it isn't only Leafs that have Chademo, they are the best-selling vehicle that does so it's a reasonable proxy measure. A quick search didn't give very accurate data but there are very roughly 100k of them in the UK:

www.statista.com

Nissan Leaf: registered cars Great Britain 2011-2018 Statistic | Statista

This statistic shows the number of Nissan Leaf cars registered in Great Britain between 2011 and 2018.

www.statista.com

en.wikipedia.org

Nissan Leaf - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

en.wikipedia.org

And there are now about 660k full BEVs in total: https://www.zap-map.com/ev-market-s...lug-in cars,BEVs and 445,000 PHEVs registered.

So roughly, it's about 5:1 CCS to Chademo now here.

As most rapids offer both connectors, I think it's pretty obvious that the Chademo car:connector ratio is more favourable than CCS (Zap-Map stats again if you want figures). Crucially though, this only gives Chademo drivers a big advantage for rapids that support dual charging: otherwise us Chademo drivers end up waiting for the CCS car that got there first to finish.

In summary:

There is no problem with Chademo charging at the moment. Chademo rapid charging deployment continues to grow. In fact, Chademo drivers may even be at a small advantage compared to CCS drivers right now.
There may be a problem beginning in a few years time, mild at first, then getting steadily worse. In that kind of time frame, the last Leaf Gen 2 will roll off the production line, and Chademo fitting for new vehicles in the UK will be all over bar the shouting. Then it is a question of how long the tail the charger support turns out to be, as the proportion of Chademo to CCS cars dwindles further.

Lastly, people often refer to Chademo as the Betamax of the rapid charger connections. Whilst not an entirely accurate analogy, it's interesting to note that, according to Wikipedia, the last new Betamax machine was sold in 2002, and the last new tape in 2016.

Kind regards
- Garry

See less See more

Reactions: 1

Stinsy

· #76 · 5 mo ago

GarryL said:
Although it isn't only Leafs that have Chademo, they are the best-selling vehicle that does so it's a reasonable proxy measure. A quick search didn't give very accurate data but there are very roughly 100k of them in the UK:

Nissan Leaf: registered cars Great Britain 2011-2018 Statistic | Statista

This statistic shows the number of Nissan Leaf cars registered in Great Britain between 2011 and 2018.

www.statista.com

Nissan Leaf - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

And there are now about 660k full BEVs in total: https://www.zap-map.com/ev-market-statistics/#:~:text=How many plug-in cars,BEVs and 445,000 PHEVs registered.

So roughly, it's about 5:1 CCS to Chademo now here.

As most rapids offer both connectors, I think it's pretty obvious that the Chademo car:connector ratio is more favourable than CCS (Zap-Map stats again if you want figures). Crucially though, this only gives Chademo drivers a big advantage for rapids that support dual charging: otherwise us Chademo drivers end up waiting for the CCS car that got there first to finish.

In summary:

There is no problem with Chademo charging at the moment. Chademo rapid charging deployment continues to grow. In fact, Chademo drivers may even be at a small advantage compared to CCS drivers right now.

There may be a problem beginning in a few years time, mild at first, then getting steadily worse. In that kind of time frame, the last Leaf Gen 2 will roll off the production line, and Chademo fitting for new vehicles in the UK will be all over bar the shouting. Then it is a question of how long the tail the charger support turns out to be, as the proportion of Chademo to CCS cars dwindles further.

Lastly, people often refer to Chademo as the Betamax of the rapid charger connections. Whilst not an entirely accurate analogy, it's interesting to note that, according to Wikipedia, the last new Betamax machine was sold in 2002, and the last new tape in 2016.

Kind regards
- Garry

On the other hand it is becoming common for rapid charging facilities that do offer ChaDeMo to have only a single ChaDeMo bay and that bay is shared with CCS. If that bay is blocked you’re out of luck.

If you own a ChaDeMo car I wouldn’t sweat too much and certainly this is no reason to quickly sell your car. However I wouldn’t recommend anyone buy a ChaDeMo car if they’re planning to rapid-charge.

Reactions: 3

Cheshirecat

· #77 · 5 mo ago

Bill N said:
Reliability is the number one consideration though - and the Zoe and especially the Ioniq don’t fair well, at least according to WhatCar. Surprised me a little.

If it were me, I’d bide my time, save a bit more, watch the market and see what else comes within my growing budget in the coming months.

Agree, but the question is 20k now……and rather than suggest to the OP to do something different than they have asked….I made suggestions based on “ <20 k..now “ 👍

Reactions: 1

BillTheButcher

Discussion Starter · #78 · 5 mo ago

GOSPORT DAVE said:
May I through something so far not mentioned in the mix, The Vauxhall Corsa -E - 45Kwh Battery usable - However would be pushing it to get 150 winter miles, probably closer to 120 miles - there are lots of examples on Autotrader at sub £20K.

I have no experience of this vehicle, so could be pants but worth investigating, surely.

I test drove a Corsa-e last year. ev-database says it'll do 170 miles which is more than enough for me. I'm wary of Vauxhall's reputation for reliability, though.

sean1001 said:
It looks like there are a few Peugeot e208s under 20K now as well. The same platform as the Corsa-E but with a nicer interior and appearance (in my opinion). You might get more kit for your money with a Corsa-E.

I test drove an e-208 not longer after the Corsa-e. Yes, the interior was a lot nicer but, again, Peugeot's reported reliability has never been a strong point.

Dion Rust said:
None of the new R135 ZOEs have battery lease. It’s now part of the purchase cost.

I would go for the ZOE, I’ve had no issues at all with reliability in 25,000 miles (other than teething in the first few months). At the moment the range is 140 miles cold soaked in -° temperatures and from 220-240 miles during the summer.

alegar said:
Agree on that. I’ve had a ZOE50 for over two years in subscription and only reason I’m thinking getting something different second hand is out of boredom. It’s difficult to compete with ZOE prices right now, I’d look at GT line with winter pack (heated seats).

great size, fits everywhere and although CCS charging is slo, it’s very efficient to make up for it.

Thanks, both. Good to hear some positive feedback about the Zoe's reliability. It's looking like the top runner at the moment.

Cheshirecat said:
Well there are Teslas M3 for sale 3.5 years old for <25k but not many. Most are 25-30k at that age
and they have a few months warranty left on the cars
There are a similar number of 64kw KiaNiro around at 25-30k, but of course they have over 3 years warranty left
I believe that is important for a used ev buyer
But sub 20k ( lest we forget, that was the brief here) the Zoe is hard to beat, unless the NCAP “issue” is troubling for you….then surely its an Ioniq 38

Not bothered about the NCAP thing.

Bill N said:
Reliability is the number one consideration though - and the Zoe and especially the Ioniq don’t fair well, at least according to WhatCar. Surprised me a little.

If it were me, I’d bide my time, save a bit more, watch the market and see what else comes within my growing budget in the coming months.

The Ioniq's position in the WhatCar list surprised me as well. I didn't have any major issues in the two years I had one. Apart from the REFILL COOLANT message (that I only had once), the worst thing was the glitchy infotainment. Apart from that, it was solid.

Stinsy said:
On the other hand it is becoming common for rapid charging facilities that do offer ChaDeMo to have only a single ChaDeMo bay and that bay is shared with CCS. If that bay is blocked you’re out of luck.

If you own a ChaDeMo car I wouldn’t sweat too much and certainly this is no reason to quickly sell your car. However I wouldn’t recommend anyone buy a ChaDeMo car if they’re planning to rapid-charge.

I'd estimate that 95% of my charging will be at home so ChaDeMo's not that big an issue. That said, if I can't decide between the Leaf and a second car, and the second car has CCS, I wouldn't choose the Leaf.

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Bill N

· #79 · 5 mo ago

Cheshirecat said:
Agree, but the question is 20k now……and rather than suggest to the OP to do something different than they have asked….I made suggestions based on “ <20 k..now “ 👍

OP has already said it looks like it might be worth hanging on for a bit. Ioniq is well down the reliability table, and Zoe isn’t great. 👍

Reactions: 1

BillTheButcher

Discussion Starter · #80 · 5 mo ago

If it looks like things will change in my favour, I wouldn't mind hanging on for a bit. My wife, on the other hand, wants the Suzuki gone as soon as possible. She thinks it's a deathtrap.

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