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Discussion Starter #1
One of my major fears of going EV relates to the balance point between charging speed, and range, and the fact that upto now it's appeared to me that I would have to add somewhere between half and a full hour every couple of hours, which on a long road trip, and when that doesn't fit the way my wife and I travel, just extends the journey time by too much. You see the way we travel is to stop often, say every 3/4 hour, for a quick pee (we're getting older!) and then off again - that pee break might be only 5 minutes, so a 400 mile trip, might take 8 hours of driving, plus 7 * 5 minutes, so a total of 8 3/4 hours. In an EV, with 150 mile range, If we drove as per usual, but with 3 extended pee breaks of 3/4 hour, that gives a total journey time of almost 11 hours. My question is this - is it possible to use each of those 5 minute breaks, possibly extending them to 10 minutes, as actual charging stops, getting what, a max of 50kw * 0.6 = 27kwh and thus increasing range by 75 miles each stop, which actually is what I would use up on each leg - so I'd never need the big 10 - 80/90% charge on top of the pee breaks ?

sorry it took so long to describe, and I guess I know it's possible in theory, I just wanted to get some other peoples ideas on how the idea could or won't work in practice.
 

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I didn't review your maths, but I recognise the question, as my wife and I are also older and travel together. MpB is a real constraint (miles per bladder). We tried the more frequent strategy and found that, by the time we got off the motorway, found the charger, navigated the app/screen/RFID process, plugged in, checked it was charging and walked to the building we had already used up 10 mins of our "quick stop". I'm trying to say that actual charging time was too small a percentage of the stop so was inefficient. Plus the SoC wasn't ideal for rapid charging (though the e-Golf has quite a flat charging profile and will keep up a relatively reasonable rate even above 80%).
 

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a max of 50kw * 0.6 = 27kwh and thus increasing range by 75 miles each stop,
Maths is a bit off. 10mins of an hour is 0.17, so you would only get around 8kWh assuming it was hitting peak 50kW for the full 10mins (likely given you will be at a low SoC and the battery would be warm unless very cold outside and it's cold gating).

Could probably do it in a Tesla, as they got peak charging speeds of around 140kW, right?
 

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I've actually done a lot of driving and charging using exactly the kind of pattern you're talking about in a Leaf 40.

An example being a run from Norwich to London and back. I charged for 10 minutes at Birchanger on the way down. 30 minutes in London and 10 minutes at Thetford on the way back. It worked fine late at night because all the chargers were available and working.

On numerous other occasions I charged for 5 or 10 minutes while picking up a coffee at Bannatyne's or grabbing something to eat from Lidl. The most important thing is to charge when the battery is low enough to accept the fastest rate of charge.

At 50kW you can add around 8kWh in 10 minutes which is good for about another 30 miles of driving. It's typically better to charge in 20+ minute blocks to gain a more significant increase in range.

In a Leaf 40, if you start a journey with 140 miles of real-world range then stop for 20 minutes after the first 80 miles then each subsequent 60 miles of driving, you should be able to achieve around 250 miles with three stops totaling 1 hour.

You probably won't want to rapid charge more than 3 times in a day so 250 (or up to about 300 if you 'hypermile') is about the limit for a Leaf 40. With a bigger battery you could easily get to 400.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
So you don't stop for a meal in the 8 hours?
As unusual as it may be for most on here, no we don't - we may eat a sandwich, or a bit of cooked chicken, and eat on the road, but we have a morbid fear of spending anything over £4 on any meal - welcome to life as a poor pensioner - but by doing that, we can afford the fuel to go on holiday in the first place. Can't do a lot while we're on it mind you !!

Oh, and maths is n't my strong point - obviously lack of good food !
 

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As unusual as it may be for most on here, no we don't - we may eat a sandwich, or a bit of cooked chicken, and eat on the road, but we have a morbid fear of spending anything over £4 on any meal - welcome to life as a poor pensioner - but by doing that, we can afford the fuel to go on holiday in the first place.
Is an EV actually going to save you money?

If I was retired on a tight budget and doing a low annual mileage I'd be looking at a good, used ICE and put the money I'd saved to the fuel. I very much doubt the fuel savings of an EV would cover the extra upfront costs, at low mileages the costs are dominated by the upfront cost and associated depreciation of the car itself.

At some point the falling costs of used EVs will change that balance but at present the cost of a new or used EV fit for occassional 400 mile long trips would push me squarely in favour of an efficient ICE.
 

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I very much doubt the fuel savings of an EV would cover the extra upfront costs, at low mileages the costs are dominated by the upfront cost and associated depreciation of the car itself.
The difference in upfront cost is not important. It's the difference in depreciation costs.

Whilst my used Zoe was around £4k more to buy than the equivalent Clio, it's seen very little depreciation compared to the Clio. So in terms of total cost of ownership I am miles better off financially even before you factor in the fuel savings (which aren't massive as I've only done around 4,500 this year).
 

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Is an EV actually going to save you money?

If I was retired on a tight budget and doing a low annual mileage I'd be looking at a good, used ICE and put the money I'd saved to the fuel. I very much doubt the fuel savings of an EV would cover the extra upfront costs, at low mileages the costs are dominated by the upfront cost and associated depreciation of the car itself.

At some point the falling costs of used EVs will change that balance but at present the cost of a new or used EV fit for occassional 400 mile long trips would push me squarely in favour of an efficient ICE.
You have squarely hit the nail on its head. I happen to be retired and own an EV. It suits us as the majority of our journeys are local and, when we do drive a long way, my wife prepares sandwiches and a flask. Paying high prices for kWhs and Motorway Services food makes for an expensive journey For most families, owning an ICE will make financial sense for many years to come.
 

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The difference in upfront cost is not important. It's the difference in depreciation costs.
But if you're on a tight budget and buying a car to keep long term, rather than trade it every few years, that upfront cost sets your depreciation because the value at end of life is close to zero.

It's simple accounting that with EVs costing quite a bit more upfront than their ICE equivalent and with expected lifespan around the same, and their final value being around zero, the average annual depreciation must be greater. The curve might be different and it might move as the market matures but it has to be paid, and I can't see it being much different to regular cars where its heavily front loaded.
 

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But if you're on a tight budget and buying a car to keep long term, rather than trade it every few years, that upfront cost sets your depreciation because the value at end of life is close to zero.

It's simple accounting that with EVs costing quite a bit more upfront than their ICE equivalent and with expected lifespan around the same, and their final value being around zero, the average annual depreciation must be greater. The curve might be different and it might move as the market matures but it has to be paid, and I can't see it being much different to regular cars where its heavily front loaded.
Well if you are talking about timespans were the cars will become worthless (i.e 10yrs+), then you probably will eventually see the cost difference recouped in fuel and VED savings alone. Even on my modest 4,500miles, I have saved around £650. Add in servicing and maintenance costs and it will be even quicker.
 

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But if you're on a tight budget and buying a car to keep long term, rather than trade it every few years, that upfront cost sets your depreciation because the value at end of life is close to zero.
An EV's value at EOL will not be zero. The batteries will put a floor limit on it since they can be reused
Maybe £3k-£4k in todays money
 

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As unusual as it may be for most on here, no we don't - we may eat a sandwich, or a bit of cooked chicken, and eat on the road, but we have a morbid fear of spending anything over £4 on any meal - welcome to life as a poor pensioner - but by doing that, we can afford the fuel to go on holiday in the first place. Can't do a lot while we're on it mind you !!
What is important to you?
I decided avoiding fossil fuel was my priority. Now it is easy to have regular stops, charge, have flask of coffee, sandwich and drive 350 miles with a few stops at 100 mile intervals.

But if you are content burning more fossil fuel, then don't change. You surely know petrol > CO2 > global warming, so why keep using it?
 

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associated depreciation of the car itself.

At some point the falling costs of used EVs will change that balance but at present the cost of a new or used EV fit for occassional 400 mile long trips would push me squarely in favour of an efficient ICE.
At the moment EV are appreciating and used EV prices are not falling. Demand outstrips supply.


I owned a car very similar to this one from February 2016 to March 2018. At the end Renault Finance wanted £4442 from me as the final value. This was more than the £3500 average that Renault were getting at auction on returned PCPs so I told them they could take mine as well as the dealer would not take it in P/X and as I could get the then new Zoe with no deposit. Move forward a year, that similar Zoe is now on the local Renault dealer's forecourt at £7450 and now on Autotrader for £8290.

I really wish I'd paid the final value :(. Still hindsight is 20:20.
 

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Well if you are talking about timespans were the cars will become worthless (i.e 10yrs+), then you probably will eventually see the cost difference recouped in fuel and VED savings alone. Even on my modest 4,500miles, I have saved around £650. Add in servicing and maintenance costs and it will be even quicker.
Over the last 4 years in 2 Zoes I've covered 34603 miles (I've got a spreadsheet). Assuming that I've paid for all the electric to cover those miles (which I haven't) it's cost me £1297.61 at an average of 15p/kW. I have a feeling that around a quarter of that mileage is on free electricity from folk like EcoT, NT and Polar. (Zoe can't rapid charge)

Assuming you could manage 10p/mile it would have cost me £3460.30 in petrol.
 

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An EV's value at EOL will not be zero. The batteries will put a floor limit on it since they can be reused
Maybe £3k-£4k in todays money
Average age of cars being scrapped is around 13 to 14 years and slowly rising, I really doubt we'll see anyone paying £3k - 4k for what at 13+ years of age will be a battery almost at end of life. Apart from use as parts to keep some old EVs running, who is going to be buying up life expired batteries?
 

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Average age of cars being scrapped is around 13 to 14 years and slowly rising, I really doubt we'll see anyone paying £3k - 4k for what at 13+ years of age will be a battery almost at end of life. Apart from use as parts to keep some old EVs running, who is going to be buying up life expired batteries?
They will firstly be used as static storage. Ex EV battery's cells are not all dead at end of driving life. Then once they're no longer usable for that then they'll go to a recycling plant as some of the cells will still be usable and the chemicals etc in the rest are nearly 100% recyclable. If you're about to say the plants don't exist, it's estimated that the plants won't be needed for 10 years or so and the processes to recycle exist already. You're using thinking that is around 3 to 5 years out of date. What was (almost) correct in 2011/12 is not true now. A lot of people have been doing masses of research since then.
 
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