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Discussion Starter #1
The phrase "short range BEV" is being used more and more. This is in-accurate and unfair.

It's been proven that 90%+ journeys are within a 60 mile round trip radius. The current affordable Electric cars cover these distances with ease.

Petrol cars have a massive range as it's very simple to install a large empty fuel tank and, usually, the only reason they get filled up is to avoid stopping at a garage frequently.

So the affordable EVs are a normal range car designed for the normal person driving normally to their normal destinations.

There is one manufacturer that has created an EV with a long range and although the battery will only get fully used by normal people on very rare occasions is trying to say that this range is what is needed.

So I think the term "short range" should be for the Twizzy and like, Tesla is a "long range" car and and the rest are all "EV" or "BEV" or even "Normal range EV".
 

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I don't think Twizzy's should be called cars at all, legally they are quadricycles, and are more akin to a road legal quad bike than a car. (How about EV Quad?)

If there were a new type of petrol car, with only a 60 mile range. They would inevitably get called short range cars. I don't see why EV's are (or should be) treated differently to 'normal' cars.

We shouldn't kid ourselves, we might be able to live perfectly well with short range, but it IS short range.

I really don't want 60 miles to become the future standard for Normal!

I personally think calling the usual crop of EV's short-range is not creating unrealistic expectation for new adopters, and indicates to manufacturers that we really want more range from our EV's. Like Tesla are striving to achieve - Which I see as a good thing!

You might not like it, but I don't think it is unfair or inaccurate, after-all I drive an Ampera purely because of range!
 

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If we want Ev's to be considered normal cars we need to use the same yardstick for measuring them.
Hence you need to persuade the entire world to refer to current petrol/diesel as 'Exaggerated Range Cars', then we could start to call 60 mile range vehicles 'normal range cars'. If you want to start something new like 'everyday range' then maybe that might work, but it risks the stigma of making EV's different from 'normal' cars.
 

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I'd also criticise the "90% journeys within 60 miles" thing. Yeah, sure, 90% of my journeys ARE less than 60 miles. But unless you have a rigid life and only ever carry out one journey per day, you might want to do TWO journeys that in total are over 60 miles. Now you're in trouble.
 

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I'd also criticise the "90% journeys within 60 miles" thing. Yeah, sure, 90% of my journeys ARE less than 60 miles. But unless you have a rigid life and only ever carry out one journey per day, you might want to do TWO journeys that in total are over 60 miles. Now you're in trouble.
Do we have a source (or sources) for that quote? I know we mostly use it as you've stated it, but is it possible that the original was along the lines of "90% of daily usage is within 60 miles" which is a very different matter entirely (and captures an awful lot more people).
 

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Normal range for me equals what I am willing to drive in 2-3 hours so 200 to 250 miles.

As long as I could charge at my destination and a 30 min charge en route for longer journeys I wouldn't see a need for more range than that.

The good thing is that we could easily see a 3 fold decrease in battery cost in the next few years. Which makes this a very attainable target for a normal range car.
 

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Do we have a source (or sources) for that quote? I know we mostly use it as you've stated it, but is it possible that the original was along the lines of "90% of daily usage is within 60 miles" which is a very different matter entirely (and captures an awful lot more people).
In the past I've often quoted that 96% of daily commutes are less than 46 miles, and 99.2% are less than 100 miles. But I can remember where I got that from and suspect that 85% of all statistics are made up !


However, if you fancy digesting stats as light reading here is the fascinating bed time book entitled "National Travel Survey 2012" with loads of conclusions to draw upon.


https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/.../nts2012-01.pdf
 

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Discussion Starter #10
A Twizzy is a quad yes, but it's also an EV. With a relatively shorter range than the majority of EVs. A Tesla is also an EV with a longer range than the majority EVs.

So a normal range EV (normal because the majority have the same range) is the I3, Leaf, Zoe etc.

A normal range ICE is larger than a normal range EV.

I guess I'm getting annoyed (along with others) about the whole "anything other than a Tesla is crap" comments getting more frequent.
 

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A Twizzy is a quad yes, but it's also an EV. With a relatively shorter range than the majority of EVs. A Tesla is also an EV with a longer range than the majority EVs.

So a normal range EV (normal because the majority have the same range) is the I3, Leaf, Zoe etc.

A normal range ICE is larger than a normal range EV.

I guess I'm getting annoyed (along with others) about the whole "anything other than a Tesla is crap" comments getting more frequent.
There is a large element on this forum that would prefer a longer electric range than the "majority" of current offerings. Many, like me, have bought extended range vehicles rather than one of the "majority" currently available. Like me, they believe that the current range is insufficient for their needs. I believe Tesla is showing the way cars need and will go in the future. This does not make me a Tesla advocate, but rather an enthusiast of their current state of the art. Roll on the day when Tesla meets competition from other manufacturers and "long range" vehicles become competitively priced rather than just premium vehicles. This will not make vehicles with ranges such as the current leaf redundant. There will be many people who will find the current range more than adequate for their needs.
It will still be "horses for courses".
 

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I guess I'm getting annoyed (along with others) about the whole "anything other than a Tesla is crap" comments getting more frequent.
To be fair it's kinda true....! I drive a Leaf. Now, if you took out the battery and electric motor and dropped in a petrol engine and a 5 speed gear box, would I have bought it? No, because it's an ugly car, not that big and not very "cool". The only thing that makes it good is it's electric. Tesla have basically the exact opposite philosophy, make it an amazing car which happens to be electric.

Yes, yes, I know, the Leaf perfectly fits the driving needs of so many people, I get it! On a numbers only excel spreadsheet analysis it's almost perfect. But it doesn't have soul, it isn't something to get excited about, it has too many compromises, and it's not what the majority of car buyers want. Private buyers don't want it, they want Fiestas and Focus's and Corsas and Astras. So the Leaf is too big for the Fiestas and Corsas and definitely too expensive. It's the right size for the Astras and Focus's but they are bought by people that need to cart round their kids and the Leaf today, because of it's range, and ONLY because of it's range, make that tricky. Fleet buyers don't want them, because distances between sites are too high, there's no presitge and the price is too low! Yes, the price is too low to be compared to the mercs and audis and beemers that are sold by the bucket load, and which employees pick from a list in their price range.

So for the Tesla approach there is one compromise, price. But at the same time you create desirability, prestige and a hunger for a model at the £30k price point. Then, the Astra buyer can "level up" and justify it on cost savings, and the fleet buyer can either pick his entry level £30k car (and be one of the big boys in a Tesla) or if he's higher up the ladder get the Model S.

Maybe one day after that Tesla will make a small car too, but we'll see.
 

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Discussion Starter #16
Great, so we have;

Short Range BEV - i-MIEV, i3, Leaf, ZOE, etc.
Long Range BEV - Tesla
Range Extended EV - Ampera/Volt, i3 REx, Outlander, etc.

Simple!
Completely wrong, or are you just winding me up :rolleyes:
Short range = those that have a shorter range than normal
Long range = those that have a longer range than normal
Normal = The range of the majority.
 

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I own a LEAF and I do think it's a "short range" car. I really want EVs to be viewed as cars, and I think to do so we have to be realistic. My LEAF is a short range car.

I live in the south of England (apparently) and yet I can't drive to the coast without stopping to recharge, that's my (rough) yardstick.

I'm not sure it's really offensive or unrealistic, but then I don't really mind that many sane people may think my car is ugly, weird, and short range. I can't really argue on the first two as they're just opinions, but the third is really true.

I'm not even sure how much range would make it "not short range", I guess it's the range that when the "man on the street' says "how far can it go" and you give the reply, they don't think it's short or just "odd"/unreasonable. It's a range where people stop thinking about range as their number one concern I guess.
 

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Short range should be directly linked to blader size.

Leaf needs filling before I need emptying………..short range
Tesla needs filling after I need emptying…………long range

Simplezzz:D
 

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Completely wrong, or are you just winding me up :rolleyes:
Short range = those that have a shorter range than normal
Long range = those that have a longer range than normal
Normal = The range of the majority.
I completely agree with this analysis. What I totally disagree with is separating electric CARS from other fuelled CARS. Electric cars should not be a special case we want them to be accepted as just cars, and as such, at present, the majority fall into the first category you have listed.
Consequently a 300 mile Tesla is only a normal range car, and a 500 mile Diesel Jaguar falls into the long range car group.
 
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