[Mr_G]

The problem is, you and me and probably most of the people reading this forum, might be willing to make some compromises in order improve our local air quality, but is the mass market. That said, the least amount of times I have to stop and charge the better.

If there were huge tax or other financial advantages to having a smaller battery and having to charge more frequently, then maybe I would be willing to compromise. It's a big maybe, as having the convenience of not having to charge as often is huge as well.

@TVEV Well said. Personally just two more rapids in the right places and my old old ICE car can go and my 24 kWh LEAF does not need to be replaced with a longer range BEV. Yes, a few times a year an extra stop and delay but the alternative would cost me thousands more a year in fresh deprecation on top of a low annual mileage. Most of the time for me a 40 kWh would not be doing anything that the 24 kWh cannot do.

Sure I would like a 40 kWh or even 60 kWh LEAF but if only the public charging was that little bit better it would be a want not a need. The 24 kWh LEAF could but currently cannot do all trips. BEV heaven for me is more public charging and a battery replacement option when the battery is degraded. So close to not having to think about an E-Power or an i3 ReX as a single car replacement for the current two. Can I hold on until public charging comes good? - I don't know.

PS Just discovered this inside the 'Road to Zero' report so if the A303 in Somerset gets covered that is one of my dead spots for rapid charging sorted out just four years later than I had hoped. Hopes this helps others suffering charging dead zones.

'Highways England (HE) have completed a gap analysis to identify locations required to
fulfil their target. Under the grants process, HE have already issued grants to two local
authorities, Mid Suffolk and Shropshire (A49) with a further four applications received:
South Somerset (A303); Ryedale District Council (A64 York – Scarborough);
Herefordshire (A49); Chichester (A27). Chargepoints will be installed this year.'

 

[Hitstirrer]

Sorry to resurrect an ancient thread but finally, after four years, Nissan is to release a car with its new e-Power series drive train. The new Qashqai will be powered by a series hybrid system with a small battery driving an EV chassis much like the Ariya and a petrol generator proving ongoing power without actually driving the wheels. All of the driving experience of an Ariya ( with a background hum of an engine ) and with a huge driving range. With the fuel costs for both petrol and EV being similar per mile these days it could attract a lot of EV drivers who are becoming increasingly disenchanted by the charging infrastructure.

 

[RuralEV]

Sad times.

@donald will rightly point out that a well driven ICE will have similar overall emissions to a BEV over a long journey with the current electricity mix, but that is NOT how the majority of these will be used. And unlike PHEVs these are not a "gateway" to the full BEV experience. Instead they represent a technological blind alley that will slow the required move away from fossil fuels.

And to think that Nissan were one of the companies that lead the move to make mainstream EVs available 10 years ago.

 

[Hitstirrer]

Sad times.

@donald will rightly point out that a well driven ICE will have similar overall emissions to a BEV over a long journey with the current electricity mix,

Invoking the @donald hyperweapon so early is interesting. But this sentence is wrong. If you misspoke over emmissions with the BEV part, and meant to write HEV, then I agree. The e-Power car is indeed an ICE in reality - with a similar emission and consumption rating as an average pure ICE car of the same size and power. The difference is the drive experience which would be nearer to a BEV than a pure ICE. Just with an annoying buzz in the background from the generator. And that could cause a few BEV drivers to go over to the dark side. Especially when daily running costs are almost identical for people without a home charger advantage. The range part and the flaky infrastructure are powerful persuasive factors to drivers who need frequent ranges beyond 100 miles round trips.

You start by saying 'Sad times'. This would indicate that you are a keen advocate of the BEV solution. Perhaps on environmental grounds. But the solution for your desire is to lobby strongly for more, and more reliable chargers out there. Tesla style. They understood the chicken/egg process much better. Until a BEV can be charged reliably, rapidly, and on ever street corner, there will still be a niche market for cars like this Qashqai.

 

[Spiny]

In theory as the ICE engine can be run at its most efficient and using something like the Atkinson cycle this should be more efficient than a pure ICE of the same size.
Where I think they have missed the boat is putting in a larger battery and a plug, this would then be serial hybrid with a range extender... Now where did I see some of those?

 

[Hitstirrer]

In theory as the ICE engine can be run at its most efficient and using something like the Atkinson cycle this should be more efficient than a pure ICE of the same size.
Where I think they have missed the boat is putting in a larger battery and a plug, this would then be serial hybrid with a range extender... Now where did I see some of those?

Absolutely right. But perhaps they calculated that the price of such a car would take it up another £10k and that would be well beyond what people would pay. The Qashqai has always been very popular and it will now sell to both ICE drivers who are terrified of range anxiety as well as to disenchanted EV drivers who have also found that aspect to be a concern.

The takeup will be interesting to watch. I intend to try a test drive. Partly for personal information. But also because ......who knows..... it might fit into my own driving pattern quite well.

 

[RuralEV]

the solution for your desire is to lobby strongly for more, and more reliable chargers out there.

You are assuming that people act logically. Few of the people buying one of these will have tried a pure BEV and found it unsuitable. Most will just be remaining with ICE based on cost and ignorance.

In theory as the ICE engine can be run at its most efficient and using something like the Atkinson cycle this should be more efficient than a pure ICE of the same size.

Toyota's advertising is clearly working - changing the cycle type is only a small part of gaining efficiency, and arguably a small highly boosted engine (Ford Ecoboost for example) is better. But this is confusing the steady state efficiency of steady cruising with the reality of short distance stop-start motoring which is most people's reality most of the time. Then you need to look at the efficiency of warming up the ICE and cat along with the energy recovery of a small battery hybrid.

 

[Spiny]

You are assuming that people act logically. Few of the people buying one of these will have tried a pure BEV and found it unsuitable. Most will just be remaining with ICE based on cost and ignorance.



Toyota's advertising is clearly working - changing the cycle type is only a small part of gaining efficiency, and arguably a small highly boosted engine (Ford Ecoboost for example) is better. But this is confusing the steady state efficiency of steady cruising with the reality of short distance stop-start motoring which is most people's reality most of the time. Then you need to look at the efficiency of warming up the ICE and cat along with the energy recovery of a small battery hybrid.

Looking back 10 years, the 1.4 corsa engine in the Ampera, running using a modified Atkinson cycle and only at a few setpoints is efficient. Bit weird to drive when the engine is in use as the engine speed has nout to do with the road speed and jumps from setting to setting depending on the electric power requirements.
The downside is you have no control of the engine so hypermiling is not really on and you are in the lap of the designers on the efficiency, I normally get 50mpg once off the battery charge which for a 2ton car is not bad.

 

[Pennywide]

You are assuming that people act logically. Few of the people buying one of these will have tried a pure BEV and found it unsuitable. Most will just be remaining with ICE based on cost and ignorance.



Toyota's advertising is clearly working - changing the cycle type is only a small part of gaining efficiency, and arguably a small highly boosted engine (Ford Ecoboost for example) is better. But this is confusing the steady state efficiency of steady cruising with the reality of short distance stop-start motoring which is most people's reality most of the time. Then you need to look at the efficiency of warming up the ICE and cat along with the energy recovery of a small battery hybrid.

I think this is a valid point. The Toyota 'self-charging' marketing pulled me in but in the years I had the car my driving pattern never allowed me to put the car into EV Mode. I was always limited to very short periods of electric only power when the car switched by itself.

That car left me wanting more of the EV experience so I'm now in a PHEV and will go BEV when I change again.

 

[Mr_G]

The technology of e-power has worked well in Japan in the Note. But the driving speeds in Japan are slower than in the UK. The efficiency (i.e. mpg) at UK motorway speeds will be poor. Like most things it is a compromise in design and had strong and weak points. It is an alternative rather than out and out good or bad. Personally rather than consider the potentially marginal CO2 case, the fact e-power produces PM is the reason I would try to avoid it.

 

[Hitstirrer]

You are assuming that people act logically. Few of the people buying one of these will have tried a pure BEV and found it unsuitable. Most will just be remaining with ICE based on cost and ignorance.

Partly right. At least over the bit about so few people trying a BEV. They don't do that because of the initial perception and the many media negatives over range anxiety and poor infrastructure before they even venture to look deeper. So they never get to the stage of finding it unsuitable really. They unilaterally declare that.

So that in fact they do act logically. They make a list of positives and negatives and find that the sheer price of an EV versus a similar petrol car is too high. When pondering the clear and obvious range and charging obstacles of a BEV on top of this, they act perfectly logically and stay with an ICE.

It's only people who spend more time delving into the longer-term benefits alongside the much better drive experience that take that leap of faith. Unfortunately, in many instances the abysmal failure of supporting industries to provide satisfactory charging facilities as well as most OEMs except Tesla refusing to understand the chicken/egg syndrome then there are loads of disenchanted BEV drivers seriously considering their position now. And such a car as this Qashquai can be tempting as it offers the same drive experience but without all of the other negatives.

 

[RuralEV]

such a car as this Qashquai can be tempting as it offers the same drive experience but without all of the other negatives.

It may tempt some people, but it will not offer an identical drive experience to an EV, more so to an ICE. Noise, smell, vibrations, higher CofG, need to refuel expensively and out of the way every 500 miles with smelly and dirty pumps etc. isn't the EV drive experience, particularly for those with home charging.

If an owner is someone that mainly does long journeys or doesn't have home or workplace charging then a serial hybrid such as this has some attractions.

Anyway, it'll be off of UK sales by 2030.

 

[Hitstirrer]

It may tempt some people, but it will not offer an identical drive experience to an EV, more so to an ICE. Noise, smell, vibrations, higher CofG, need to refuel expensively and out of the way every 500 miles with smelly and dirty pumps etc. isn't the EV drive experience, particularly for those with home charging.

Did you watch the Nissan Chorley video by Miles in post #102 above?

He is a very experienced EV driver - OK also a salesman with that agenda - but his comments didn't seem to be either ignoring or highlighting the issues that you raise. He was pretty positive on the whole about the drive itself. Fuel costs away from home are very similar these days. And petrol is everywhere even though it might need a monthly nose hold when filling.

After a test drive, I will let you know about the negatives that you mention.

 

[RuralEV]

Don't forget to drive into rural Wales with an empty fuel tank on a Sunday night. You'd be wishing you had an EV. 😉

 

[Hitstirrer]

Don't forget to drive into rural Wales with an empty fuel tank on a Sunday night. You'd be wishing you had an EV. 😉

OK - no chance of you cherry-picking a route and scenario to cause an ICE to have problems then. 😀

 

[RuralEV]

Likewise there are no routes using Rapids that BEVs can ever make, even Tesla. 😉

 

[donald]

Invoking the @donald hyperweapon so early is interesting.

What I would say about this is [.... lots of stuff you'd trust/expect/imagine me to say, and you know what that is already .... ].

Let me know if I'd have missed something.

 

[Spc369]

I say “EVIL“ manufacturers are dressing ‘MILD’ hybrids up as full hybrids and the general public believe all the hype.

i had a ct200h full hybrid that could genuinley drive several flat miles on electric power only. These later hybrids are not what people assume, they assist the petrol engine only.

probably due to increasing need for materials for bevs that hybrids are not what they were. Atm they are a pointless stop gap

 

[Hitstirrer]

I say “EVIL“ manufacturers are dressing ‘MILD’ hybrids up as full hybrids and the general public believe all the hype.

I had a ct200h full hybrid that could genuinely drive several flat miles on electric power only. These later hybrids are not what people assume, they assist the petrol engine only.

There is a possibility that you have misunderstood the drive train of this new Qashquai. It is not a standard hybrid or a plug-in hybrid. Also, not like an Ampera or a BMW i3.

This car has a tiny battery that acts as a buffer to even out traction demand and electric generation. The motivation comes from an onboard petrol generator. That engine does not drive the wheels as in a parallel hybrid system. It just provides electricity via the battery buffer and on to the electric motor. The car will only drive a very small distance without that petrol engine running. The battery in no way assists the petrol engine as you state. The car will only move under its electric motor drive.

The advantage is twofold.

First of all, the drive is exactly like a BEV. The motor and drive train is actually from the new Ariya. All of the features and benefits of a BEV are there such as regeneration braking and massive torque from the first yard to give a 7 second to 60 mph performance.

Secondly, the petrol generator is able to be programmed to run at its most economical rev range because the car speed is irrelevant to it. It will have a control system to reduce its output power when demand is low and then increase that if the driver requests high power for an overtake or similar. But the system is designed to run that petrol unit at its most economical whilst providing just-in-time power to not overload the small battery or cause a gap in the drivers demand.

The nearest equivalent that we have seen is Ampera and i3. But the Ampera was capable of being driven by both the battery and petrol power at the same time. And the i3 had a substantial battery that could run the car for 80 miles and had a small scooter engine under the boot as a Rex ( range extender ) but could not drive the wheels itself, because it wasn't connected to the drive train.

This Nissan e-Power system is a completely new kind of hybrid. The wheels are entirely driven by an electric motor but power to that motor comes from an onboard generator. Strictly speaking, it isn't a hybrid because it cannot move more than a few yards using its battery. It is really a petrol car without its own drive train and instead uses a motor instead. The impression is that because that petrol engine generator is designed to operate at its most efficient rev range then overall mpg consumption should be pretty decent.

And because it isn't ramping up and down as in a normal petrol car then the sound levels should also be pretty low. So the driver will in effect be driving a BEV with a small hum of that genny in the background. In return for unlimited driving range by petrol refills and avoiding the presently poor charging infrastructure on a road trip. I will certainly be interested in how it performs when I'm able to arrange a test drive.

 

[Spiny]

One thing the E-Drive gives Nissen is the ability to scrap the gearbox/clutch of a normal car, probably saves a few yen there