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Discussion Starter #21 (Edited)
Is this actually the case?
AFAIK

In fact, I saw a presentation some time back showing that actually a lot of the pollution at various moments in the day in London is more likely to have been blown in from mainland Europe rather than generated here, due to prevailing winds and, effectively, their low coast-line:area ratio that means pollution builds up over dense areas, particularly for airborne sulphur compounds.

I'm just saying we've basically cracked the 'diesel' emissions issue and it is a silly time to throw all that hard won engineering knowledge away just on a hunch and merely feeling it is not good. I mean look at all the pejoratives thrown at 'diesel' in this thread.

To separate out petrol and diesel and then vilify only the latter is the work of a luddite dullard who does not understand technology and does not want to. Which seems odd, in the context of people who fawn over EVs as the only solution, and that can fix everything.

If you [generic 'you'] want to throw rocks at both petrol and diesel, then, OK, I can understand your thought process there and we can talk about that, but you have to have a solution ready for those who can't afford EVs, have no drive, need a big car, need a long range car. Have you?
 

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I can see your point, and agree. Not everyone can drive an EV now but most could drive cleaner cars.

Are there other issues with diesel that makes petrol cleaner? Particulates? Anything else to consider one over the other?

I'm heading back to ice for our second car, and occasional longer runs, and am looking at smaller petrol cars. It will still do 12k miles plus but it's a lot less than I have been doing.
I'd like to know how to pick a clean one. At the moment I'm going on the cost to run, so low tax and good fuel economy, without being too slow.

I've noticed on the occasions I've walked round the centre of London this year the smell of car fumes is less than the smell around the traffic lights in our small town centre.
 

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I remember the old school lessons on this. Basically Nitrogen monoxide being produced at high temperatures. But also that it dissolves and reacts with water to produce very weak nitric acid. Which falls to earth and can act as a fertiliser. As the lightning is mainly in thunderstorms then is most removed from the atmosphere pretty quickly ? Well we just do not know enough to make a judgement with any certainty. Look at the the report.

Pickering offered one important caveat to the findings: The value of 7 kilograms per flash was derived without consideration of lightning from storms in the tropics, where most of the Earth's lightning occurs. Only very recently have data become available for tropical regions, he noted.
 

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but Euro 6 and to some degree Euro 5 are basically on a par petrol versus diesel.
Again, your entire premise is based on the EU6 thresholds during testing.

This would be fine if that's how everyone drove in the real world, but they don't. So the question is, when driven outside of the test parameters, do EU6 diesel and petrols divert from the test values in the same way?

The report I linked shows the answer to that question is a resounding no. The vast majority of diesels emit many times more NOx than the test threshold, whereas the majority of petrol cars emit similar levels to the test, with a proportion emitting slightly more, and very few emitting as much as the majority of diesels do.
 

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There is probably evidence that smoking filtered cigarettes is less harmful to health than ones without.But not smoking at all is likely to be healthiest option. Yet nature might not differentiate between a smoker and a non smoker when lightening strikes, sea levels rise etc etc. Surely individuals and Governments should try to promote actions that help health, wellbeing and the environment based on the best evidence we have available? Unless we take the view we are all going to die so what does it matter?
 

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Until all car makers are forced to remove from the roads (at their cost) any car that ever produces more emissions, (whatever the conditions that resulted it, and the age of the car) compare to what Euro 6 allows, I will not trust Euro 6.
 

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Is the lightning even Euro 6 compliant anyway?

This just sounds like the ‘superiority complex of the week’ to be honest...

We’re obviously all too stoopid to understand the point being made.
 

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Discussion Starter #28
Again, your entire premise is based on the EU6 thresholds during testing.

This would be fine if that's how everyone drove in the real world, but they don't. So the question is, when driven outside of the test parameters, do EU6 diesel and petrols divert from the test values in the same way?
You are behind the curve, and also seeing what you want to see. The tests are going to be, that is what Euro 6.2 is about.

But look at that research again and you will see a number of cars actually beat the NEDC test emissions levels in real world use anyway.

New diesel cars with SRC are typically coming in at half the NOx levels whilst on the supposedly-more-realistic WLTP. It just needed enforcement. The technology is there to do it, as new cars on WLTP/Euro 6.2 are proving.
 

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Discussion Starter #29
Until all car makers are forced to remove from the roads (at their cost) any car that ever produces more emissions, (whatever the conditions that resulted it, and the age of the car) compare to what Euro 6 allows, I will not trust Euro 6.
As above, you are behind the times.

Bear in mind too that test levels are set knowing they are test levels. Engineers set test levels more rigorously than 'needed' to make sure there is an engineering margin.
 

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You are behind the curve, and also seeing what you want to see. The tests are going to be, that is what Euro 6.2 is about.

But look at that research again and you will see a number of cars actually beat the NEDC test emissions levels in real world use anyway.

New diesel cars with SRC are typically coming in at half the NOx levels whilst on the supposedly-more-realistic WLTP. It just needed enforcement. The technology is there to do it, as new cars on WLTP/Euro 6.2 are proving.
So when you say EU6 diesels, you actually meant specifically EU6.2 diesels?

Well until there is the data I will refrain from drawing any conclusions.

Emissions aside, of course there are plenty of other reasons why diesels aren't suitable. The trade-off of the new technologies that reduce emissions is costly downstream exhaust hardware that is prone to earlier failure if not driven 'correctly'. Whilst totally suitable for the standard motorway demon who does over 20k miles per year, it is completely unsuitable fo urban driving and regular stop/start trips.

Given the vast majority of the road users do <15k miles a year, and typically do short stop/start journeys, a petrol will not only be a much better proposition from a technical POV, but also a financial POV as the higher list price and higher fuel cost for diesels typically negate the savings from improved MPG. Even more so as modern petrols get even more efficient, closing the gap in MPG between the two (not to mention hybrids).

The main driver for having diesel cars is that they produce lower CO2 than petrol. However, just as diesel technology has been improving NOx emissions, so to has petrol technology been improving CO2 emissions. To an extent were now modern diesel and petrol equivalents produce the same CO2 per km. Not to mention the move towards hybridisation.


So I tend to agree, diesels still have a place for now, but it's a rather niche area, and increasingly petrols and hybrids are replacing the need for diesel cars in these use cases, typically at a lower cost. For me, the dramatic fall in diesel market share reflects the fact that the majority of people that used to own diesels probably never should have in the first place....
 

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Until all car makers are forced to remove from the roads (at their cost) any car that ever produces more emissions, (whatever the conditions that resulted it, and the age of the car) compare to what Euro 6 allows, I will not trust Euro 6.
Our children struggle breathing walking past the brand new BMW that parks outside our house with the engine running every day. It's less than six months old so clearly I need to tell them to stop coughing and breath in deep, Euro 6 means diesels are now clean and wholesome.
 

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Discussion Starter #33
They would struggle to breathe if it was putting out pure CO2. Yes, of course, it is an asphyxiant.

Are you really suggesting to me that NOx levels in the ppb are detectable by humans?
 

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They would struggle to breathe if it was putting out pure CO2. Yes, of course, it is an asphyxiant.

Are you really suggesting to me that NOx levels in the ppb are detectable by humans?
Not sure Donald. Pump the exhaust into your living room for an hour and let us know how you feel?
 

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Humans are really good at smelling NOx in sunny urban settings by virtue of the photochemical reactions that produce detectable products.
 

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Discussion Starter #36
Not sure Donald. Pump the exhaust into your living room for an hour and let us know how you feel?
That is silly. CO2 is an asphyxiant.

I tell you what I will do quite happily. Take a Euro 6 car, filter off all the NOx it produces idling, and I will happily sit in a room with that "pumping" in.
 

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Discussion Starter #37
Humans are really good at smelling NOx in sunny urban settings by virtue of the photochemical reactions that produce detectable products.
You've made that up. Show me a reference to it.

I know exactly what ozone smells like because I have done HV work in the past. Never smelt that in London streets.

The place reeks of people, dust, decaying rubbish and particulates from ancient buses that are still allowed to roam the city.
 

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That is silly. CO2 is an asphyxiant.

I tell you what I will do quite happily. Take a Euro 6 car, filter off all the NOx it produces idling, and I will happily sit in a room with that "pumping" in.
It’s fine, it’s not putting out pure CO2.
 

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[QUOTE="donald, post: 2700004, member: 1

I know exactly what ozone smells like because I have done HV work in the past. Never smelt that in London streets.

The place reeks of people, dust, decaying rubbish and particulates from ancient buses that are still allowed to roam the city.
[/QUOTE]

Don't believe this, I think you made it up. Please quote a peer reviewed reference to substantiate your anecdote
 

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Discussion Starter #40
To my working on HV, or to ozone in the streets of London?
 
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