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I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
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Discussion Starter #1
There are some objections swirling around about reducing the passenger duty and this encourages extra pollution from aeroplanes.

I thought I'd take a look to see what the actual figures are; flight, or car and ferry?

According to Carbon calculator: find out how much CO2 your flight will emit
Belfast to Bristol would be 122kg CO2 per passenger.

According to http://carbontracking.com/reports/irish_ferries_emissions_calculation.pdf
Dublin to Holyhead is 113kg CO2 per car

That leaves 460 miles to cover in a car. I've put this in general EV because if that was done in an EV at 3 miles/kWh (you'd have to drive quick to do that in a day), 150kWh at 280g/kWh UK mix = 43kg CO2.

So from a pure CO2 perspective, EVs are not a solution to getting from Belfast to Bristol.

The Guardian does indicate 'other' effects from flying equivalent to 97kg CO2, so an effective impact of 215kg CO2, which makes an EV and a ferry look better. I am not very convinced you can do that in a day with an EV due to charging and such, but could be done by charging on the ferry overnight. I am not sure what the 97 kg is referring to, but I would not take an EV for that trip, it'd be an ICE which flips the advantage back to flying anyway.

If we want a connected country then this is the penalty. If we want to devolve into small dwarf-like forest dwelling apes then we're probably headed there anyway, no need to accelerate it.
 

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What really needs to happen is for aviation fuel to be taxed... but that needs to be done (at minimum) at Continental scale, rather than just as a national effort.
 

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There is already enough subsidies for flying (no tax on fuel for example). I also note that both Jersey and the IOM enjoy some major tax privileges.
Back to the topic - why are you comparing flying Bristol to Belfast to driving with a ferry from Holyhead to Dublin? Surely you would either go directly from Liverpool or Birkenhead? Either way they dramatically cut the drive. Also, you are assuming only one person in the car and airport to airport, not city to city or worse.
 

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I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
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Discussion Starter #5
Back to the topic - why are you comparing flying Bristol to Belfast to driving with a ferry from Holyhead to Dublin? Surely you would either go directly from Liverpool or Birkenhead? Either way they dramatically cut the drive. Also, you are assuming only one person in the car and airport to airport, not city to city or worse.
Specific to the question, I just punched it into google maps and that was the route recommended.
 

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I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
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Discussion Starter #6
Cheap flights merely encourages people to make use of them. Reducing the tax isn't setting a good example.
Cheap EVs merely encourage people to drive around and use up energy.

It's a silly argument, like I said we don't need moral positions like that to accelerate us back into the forests, technological-mankind will die out soon enough.
 

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I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
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Discussion Starter #7
What really needs to happen is for aviation fuel to be taxed... but that needs to be done (at minimum) at Continental scale, rather than just as a national effort.
.. and also car fuel more, and EV electricity more, just stop people moving around, less impact. If that is what we want, yup, just throw more and more tax at all those options until the country grinds to a halt.

Is that really the solution?

No. Really, you are off topic, I am pointing out that on a CO2 basis, flying has fewer emissions than an EV and a ferry. If you want to contradict that, go ahead, with your data.
 

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Speak, Eevee!
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Is the reduction just domestic? If so it's probably fair that it doesn't make a lot of difference either way. I'd have thought the big impact from planes is long hauls to the other side of the world, where we're trying to convince people they don't need to jet off to the Maldives 3 times a year and maybe they'd consider just once a year or two and maybe try somewhere a bit nearer sometimes. If they're making that cheaper, it doesn't exactly help matters.

Of course, as always with making anything more expensive (be it direct taxation to the customer or indirect via fuel which doesn't hurt their profits it just gets passed onto the customer through price increases) it has the side effect of increasing resentment in the working classes being denied a holiday while the well off just shrug and carry on jetting about.
 

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There are some objections swirling around about reducing the passenger duty and this encourages extra pollution from aeroplanes.

I thought I'd take a look to see what the actual figures are; flight, or car and ferry?

According to Carbon calculator: find out how much CO2 your flight will emit
Belfast to Bristol would be 122kg CO2 per passenger.

According to http://carbontracking.com/reports/irish_ferries_emissions_calculation.pdf
Dublin to Holyhead is 113kg CO2 per car

That leaves 460 miles to cover in a car. I've put this in general EV because if that was done in an EV at 3 miles/kWh (you'd have to drive quick to do that in a day), 150kWh at 280g/kWh UK mix = 43kg CO2.

So from a pure CO2 perspective, EVs are not a solution to getting from Belfast to Bristol.

The Guardian does indicate 'other' effects from flying equivalent to 97kg CO2, so an effective impact of 215kg CO2, which makes an EV and a ferry look better. I am not very convinced you can do that in a day with an EV due to charging and such, but could be done by charging on the ferry overnight. I am not sure what the 97 kg is referring to, but I would not take an EV for that trip, it'd be an ICE which flips the advantage back to flying anyway.

If we want a connected country then this is the penalty. If we want to devolve into small dwarf-like forest dwelling apes then we're probably headed there anyway, no need to accelerate it.
I have also been reading about the multiplier of the extra impact for planes. Apparently it is because the emissions happen at altitude. I haven’t understood the details of that.
I’ve been comparing flying with train travel of late. Train seems to be a clear winner in most cases to replace short flights. Usually reduces emissions very effectively.
I have to go to Nice in a few weeks. Eurostar and Oui can get me there for ~7.5kg of CO2 which compares with ~240kg with BA. That’s an extreme example (as both those train companies have very low emissions). Does add 5hours to the trip however.

Why are we choosing Bristol Belfast? Is it because that rules out the train as an effective alternative?
 

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Shouldn't we be concentrating on electric planes ? Short haul is where they can currently compete and where all the design/development effort is going.
 

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Shouldn't we be concentrating on electric planes ? Short haul is where they can currently compete and where all the design/development effort is going.
Not sure electric planes can compete just yet, they don’t really exist at any kind of scale yet, but yes looks like short haul is the more realistic case for electric planes.
Long haul flights might need Hydrogen. It’s inefficient to produce but the energy density really matters for planes.
 

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Of course the concept of the ‘Air Taxi’ has been around for a while and completely feasible.

Imagine a short electric flight of 20 minutes Exeter to Bristol carrying 12 passengers or so.

They could make use of the under-used regional airports such as St Mawgan, St Athen and Exeter, for example.
 

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Why are we choosing Bristol Belfast? Is it because that rules out the train as an effective alternative?
The train from Bristol (town centre) to Liverpool is 3 hours 10 minutes with a regular service. Ever tried getting to Bristol Airport?
The cost of air travel is partly subsidised by freight, which in turn is subsidised by the lack of fuel duty in comparison to road.
 

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Out of interest, what is the cost difference?
It’s in the same ballpark mostly. If you book flights early then flying can be slightly cheaper, but in the 3 weeks prior to flying the trains are generally working out cheaper.
Also much cheaper to have flexible tickets on the train. Any kind of flexibility with airlines is expensive.
French trains are very cheap (subsidised). Uk trains and Eurostar comparatively pricey. I’m still finding my regular Glasgow trips cost about same as my colleagues EasyJet flights, and not much slower. Though significantly more relaxing.
 

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There are real and very high costs to the NHS (and other parts of government) if some of these FlyBe flights stop operating. One of my friends used to process travel cost claims for a spalist hospital and for some pt, there were addational costs of many £k per appointment at times of year when commercial flights were not running.

Yet, there is no good reason for someone to fly from Manchester to London other then the flights being too cheap.

So we need a system to identify "link" where flying is the only practical option and a reduction in passenger numbers will result in less then one flight per day. These are the "links" that we need to remove tax from, and maybe the government to cover some of the fixed costs of operating.
 
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