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[edit] another 2 records broken: Lowest Peak price per 30min segment 6.62p/kWh. Lowest average price over the 3 hour Peak period 12.225p/kWh.

Time to dust off the fan heaters 🥵
-11.30p/kWh has smashed the previous record of -3.5p/kWh

This should definitely make it into the news.
It'll be a challenge for even the most renewables sceptic to spin this as a negative! :unsure:
 

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It'll be a challenge for even the most renewables sceptic to spin this as a negative! :unsure:
hmmm... well, what it does show is that you have to totally over-spec the maximum capacity of wind to get anything like a reasonable performance most of the time.

More windmills = more resources used up = more manufacturing CO2, but for only very very occasional 100% performance.

Yet, for a couple of 4hr periods in a typical week, there is still insufficient wind to generate virtually anything.

Would you buy an EV if every few days it could give you 1000 mile battery range, but every so often, at unpredictable times, it'd have a 10 mile range?
 

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It'll be a challenge for even the most renewables sceptic to spin this as a negative! :unsure:
It's good that there's lots of renewable energy being generated but whether the negative pricing is good for customers as a whole is far more complicated because of how the renewables subsidy schemes and system balancing costs are charged.

It's a case of giving with one hand and taking with the other - energy prices go negative for the several hours on a day, but this creates a load of costs which only become known later and then get spread over future bills.
 

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It's good that there's lots of renewable energy being generated but whether the negative pricing is good for customers as a whole is far more complicated because of how the renewables subsidy schemes and system balancing costs are charged.

It's a case of giving with one hand and taking with the other - energy prices go negative for the several hours on a day, but this creates a load of costs which only become known later and then get spread over future bills.
Well, not quite sure whether you're just assuming a Newtonian POV there (for every action, etc..) but the 'cost' is over-investing in a wind farm system, or solar, that has to be way higher boiler-plate than it will generate for almost all the time.

It would seem, however, that this additional investment is tolerable, if my Oersted share price is anything to go by.
 

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hmmm... well, what it does show is that you have to totally over-spec the maximum capacity of wind to get anything like a reasonable performance most of the time.
...
Would you buy an EV if every few days it could give you 1000 mile battery range, but every so often, at unpredictable times, it'd have a 10 mile range?
I would if it had a REx ... which is effectively where we are, with CCGT, OCGT, oil and coal providing the backup in order of preference. Whether that's cost effective / carbon efficient is, of course, another debate.
 

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It'll be a challenge for even the most renewables sceptic to spin this as a negative! :unsure:
Looks like donald is having a go, but I'm not sure anybody will be surprised?

Having for years endured the cries of 'expensive renewables' and old enough to be aware of the 'nuclear too cheap to meter' it's with a slightly weary sigh that I acknowledge that renewables may have an extra capital cost, but the net result is that with both solar panels and Agile my electricity bills are negligible.

In the current context more EVs would be very useful, and I recall seeing calculations somewhere that to meet peak demands it would still be cheaper to over install renewables with storage than to burn FF. How to mop up the surpluses beyond that is an ongoing issue. I shall do my best tomorrow afternoon at -10p a unit.:)
 

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I would if it had a REx ... which is effectively where we are, with CCGT, OCGT, oil and coal providing the backup in order of preference. Whether that's cost effective / carbon efficient is, of course, another debate.
Sure, but no the question was a BEV.

OK, let me put it another way. Would you buy an expensive 'extra pack' for your car that adds 1000 mile range, which triples the price of the car, but that only works occasionally?
 

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Unfortunately I only have a 7kW PHEV and with not much mileage to do there’s not a huge amount to fill up.
I know these opportunities come far and few between but until BEVs become more popular it would be great if there was a trading market/platform for anybody with a BEV that isn’t on Octopus or doesnt have a home chargepoint who could, providing they’re local, charge at mine whenever we have price plunging for a few hours.
Win-win.
Ok we’re taking about saving £1 for every 7kWh for the driver and an even smaller saving for bill payer.

I know you can add your home charge point to Zap-Map but there’s no way to get the message out there to local BEV drivers when price plunge is expected.
 

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OK, let me put it another way. Would you buy an expensive 'extra pack' for your car that adds 1000 mile range, which triples the price of the car, but that only works occasionally?
Thats exactly what the grid is ! Huge overcapacity of gas,coal gas,wind,solar etc to cater for a few days in Winter for just a few hours. Unbelievable line of argument !

THe total costs of new build wind turbine leccy is cheaper than that produced by already old depreciated coal plants and a lot of the gas ones also.
 

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Thats exactly what the grid is ! Huge overcapacity of gas,coal gas,wind,solar etc to cater for a few days in Winter for just a few hours. Unbelievable line of argument !
Errr ... no I don't think you understand the argument, then.

You have to buy >10 x the amount of solar and wind that you actually want, and then you still don't get anything out of them sometimes.

You have to buy x1 the amount of gas you need that you actually want.

Doesn't matter about the seasonal variations, there is a value"P GW", whatever P is, and you need to install many times P installed capacity of solar and wind, almost never get what you paid for, and only get 10% of what you paid for a lot of the time.

Gas, you get 100% of what you paid for.

Nuclear, you get over 100%, really, it just keeps on chucking out "P GW" power even when you don't want it sometimes.

If you install "20 P" of solar and wind, you get ~"P" most of the time, but very occasionally you might get "20P" when you actually want "P", and somehow you have to dump 19P somewhere.
 

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Well, not quite sure whether you're just assuming a Newtonian POV there (for every action, etc..) but the 'cost' is over-investing in a wind farm system, or solar, that has to be way higher boiler-plate than it will generate for almost all the time.
I really don't understand what you are trying to say here.
1. In terms of peak output v average (v lowest wind speed v highest wind speed v cost v etc etc), that presumably is a trade off that the designers will make as they do in any design process.

2. There is no 'over production'. The objective is to overproduce, introduce storage to take that excess, starting with short term (e.g. batteries), then moving to medium term (e.g. hydrogen) and then long term (e.g. methanol or ammonia). Forcing the unit cost down is one mechanism for making the storage solutions financially viable.

The short term objective will be have battery storage at every wind and solar farm, as that has no additional interconnect requirements and also acts as grid stabilisation.

I just wish the government would get on with it rather than leaving it to the market, which will always deliver a JTL solution (Just too Late).
 

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Gas, you get 100% of what you paid for.
The market doesn't think so. It is becoming increasingly difficult to finance new gas plants, with one proposal to build one near Manchester last year having collapsed through lack of finance. Finance needs to see a 25 year return, and they can't see that in gas. This means that the interest rates on finance for gas plants is rising, whilst it is falling for renewables. The interest rate is the dominant factor in the cost of renewables.

You can arrange to buy a baseball cap with "Donald Digs Gas" if you like, but it will be about as effective as "Trump Digs Coal" has been for the US coal industry, although I suppose it might get you elected (hell, no-one ever lost money by underestimating the intelligence of the British public).

Now, propose a plant that can turn surplus power into hydrogen, and then use it to drive a turbine when needed, and can also use gas when required and you might have a winner.
 

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The market doesn't think so.
Not sure you understood my comment.

I mean, if you buy a 1 GW gas plant, you turn it on, it delivers 1 GW, today, every day, every time you throw the 'ON' switch.

Whether 'that' delivers a commercial gain is a whole different story altogether.
 

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Not sure you understood my comment.

I mean, if you buy a 1 GW gas plant, you turn it on, it delivers 1 GW, today, every day, every time you throw the 'ON' switch.

Whether 'that' delivers a commercial gain is a whole different story altogether.
Well that is nearly true except when its down for maintenance.
Not much point switching it on if nobody wants the leccy and even worse if causes overvoltage, things to trip and cause blackouts. Seems no different to any other form of generation in that if you are producing too much you turn it down a bit and if not producing enough look for other sources eg interconnectors.
 

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Well that is nearly true except when its down for maintenance.
Not much point switching it on if nobody wants the leccy and even worse if causes overvoltage, things to trip and cause blackouts. Seems no different to any other form of generation in that if you are producing too much you turn it down a bit and if not producing enough look for other sources eg interconnectors.
I think you need to rewind why I was commenting on that. I was trying to explain that there has to be an 'excess' investment into renewable installed capacity to try to make up some ground on them not working all the time. Not sure that is controversial or anything TBH, just how it is.

Question is, what is the right 'level' of investment into wind and solar if they can't deliver 100% all the time. What is the right mix of stuff that, together, 'can' deliver 100%?
 

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It's gonna dip to -7p/kWh again overnight.

I have a portable 14000BTU split system air con in the garage, figured I'd dust it off and give it a good run, check if it was fit and working ready for summer. Remarkably for its ~1kW consumption it is keeping the kitchen cool with the oven running at 4kW and the convection heater at 1.5kW. Interesting test to see how powerful its cooling power is.

Edit; correction, in equilibrium the various inputs/outputs, it seems, have settled on drawing ~1.4kW air con for about 4kW combined output of oven and heater.
 
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