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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Battery Life/Chris commented recently that VW will be addressing the battery heating parameters (in cold temperatures) in the "winter" update. I suggest VW should put both the battery % and battery temperature on permanent display on the screen in front of the driver. There is plenty of room and it is important information which the driver should have without diverting his/her attention to the info display screen. In cold weather isn't heating the battery akin to the automatic choke (obsolete now??) on a petrol car - i.e. to help boost power while the engine is heating up. In the electric drive case heating the battery presumably reduces the internal electric resistance thus providing more available charge and ultimately power. As well as this, VW should tweak the heating rate down for cold batteries AND provide a notification/recommendation (in the manual online?) that the ID 3 should be driven gently with slow gradual acceleration in cold weather until the battery displays say, 8 degrees C or greater. This would just represent good driving practice IMO, caring for your battery and car. Nothing new here but just trying to figure what might/should turn up in the pending update.
 

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I’d be absolutely amazed if they display battery temp, hell they won’t even display charging in kWh! Seriously they don’t want to go down a tech road with this car, it’s supposed to be a simple, easily accessible mass market vehicle.
It is an interesting subject though. And I’ll be interested in what changes they make.
Lots of factors around battery performance and longevity and drivers requirements and driving style.
I guess at some point we’ll see driver profiles and maybe some AI around behaviours…
 

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giving options is just going to confuse some drivers.
Maybe so, but not giving options is already confusing plenty of drivers…. They’re confused why there’s no option to show SoC% in the binnacle, confused why charging power is shown in different units in the car to how it is shown on a charger (and in most other EVs), and confused why they don’t get max charging power sometimes despite having low SoC.

I find it quite frustrating how stuff often seems to have to be dumbed down (which leads in future to more and more stuff getting dumbed down because people aren’t learning).
 

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I think maybe 99% of people want to get in a car and just drive it. I have an audi with a lot of data, most of it I really don't need. Just because a car does not give you all the data does not mean people don't learn.

Do I have enough battery to get me where I want to go?
  • yes = go.
  • no = charge it a bit more.

That should be the only decision really.
 

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The choke analogy doesn’t really work for me as heating the battery is more for battery protection/longevity I think, the alternative would be to not heat the battery as aggressively but limit the power available until it’s warmed.

Then we’d have post after post from people complaining they can’t use the full performance of the car that they paid for when it’s cold, pathetic etc etc!

I don’t think they’ll make any changes that rely on your average driver having to restrain themselves in order not to damage the power system.
 

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The choke analogy doesn’t really work for me as heating the battery is more for battery protection/longevity I think, the alternative would be to not heat the battery as aggressively but limit the power available until it’s warmed.

Then we’d have post after post from people complaining they can’t use the full performance of the car that they paid for when it’s cold, pathetic etc etc!

I don’t think they’ll make any changes that rely on your average driver having to restrain themselves in order not to damage the power system.
VW have been doing this on their ICE cars since the introduction of the MK7 Golf. You don't have access to full power until the oil's over 70C.
 

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Trouble is, a GOM (often) doesn’t tell you that.
I find mine does quite well. I know I can rely on it to be fairly accurate, especially on longish journeys. One I do regularly is to my parents' place around the M25. It's 78 miles door to door & I know if I drive consistently (not slowly, just "normal") the GOM will be about right. I've often arrived home with around 10 miles left on the GOM when it's said ~90 when leaving.
 

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I think in winter most people are interested in a bit of extra range rather than immediate optimal performance. And I assume the changes would improve especially short trip winter range a little, and not really impact battery longevity.
As I say will be interested in the analysis of what theyve changed. Assuming it happens!
 

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I think in winter most people are interested in a bit of extra range rather than immediate optimal performance. And I assume the changes would improve especially short trip winter range a little, and not really impact battery longevity.
As I say will be interested in the analysis of what theyve changed. Assuming it happens!
Cold battery means also limiting regen potentially.

lots of testing In cold chamber needed to make sure batteries are happy in long term. Plus one hopes a data analysis of what we’ve all done in varying temperatures
 

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Cold battery means also limiting regen potentially.

lots of testing In cold chamber needed to make sure batteries are happy in long term. Plus one hopes a data analysis of what we’ve all done in varying temperatures
We've probably got some of the best weather for battery longevity in Europe - no extremes of temperatures in Summer/Winter vs Central Europe, not as cold as Scandinavia in the Winter etc. Will be interesting to know the % of the original capacity after 5/10 years, I expect it'll be well into the high 80s at 10 years old if it has done most of its charging domestically.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Quite a lot on interesting and thoughtful comments on this. 1 particularly interesting comment was around what the manufacturer expects of the user. On one end of the scale should he be a technician to understand all the parameters and variables the car is informing him of . versus . sit in, point and drive ........"I don't need to know or understand any of this stuff". In reality there are quite a number of drivers who happily drive around without knowing/caring about the technical aspects. So where does VW sit on this scale? Anyway here some extra thoughts to throw in the mix.....
a. My wife drives a petrol Audi A1. It has an engine temperature gauge on a scale from Cold/normal operating Temp/Hot. Why can't the ID 3 have the same for the battery? - simple linear digital scale .......if that's too much work/expensive then just put in temperature as a number in degrees C
b. I'm not totally convinced that battery heating is all to do with protecting it.......ref. e.g vw e golf/no BMS system/Nissan Leaf?. Even if its true I would challenge VW on how they set the (aggressive in my mind) heating parameters. Just tweak them down a bit so that short trips in the winter are not so inefficient. Do other EV manufacturers do the same thing/same inefficiency e.g. Hyundai?
c. On the kWh (lack of display) comment.......... ideally I would like to see kWh as well as km/hr (or km/min). I don't think this is necessarily a big deal in this case as you can do a simple sum to determine your kWh charging rate ..... i.e. your km/min divided by your average economy. E.g. my last charging rate at home was 52km/hr divided by my current economy of 7km/kWh gives 7.4kWh approx.
 

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VW have been doing this on their ICE cars since the introduction of the MK7 Golf. You don't have access to full power until the oil's over 70C.
Yes, I had a power meter on an old BMW M5 I had that showed me similar.

If VW put a petrol powered oil heater on the Mk7 R so you could go out and cane it from the off, would anybody complain I wonder?

There are some sound reasons behind restricting the power of an ICE until the oil is sufficiently warmed, and it’s the same for an EV with its battery temps.

That VW have chosen to warm the battery from the off in the ID.3 so as not to have to wait a long time for full power to be available (the blue bar) makes sense to me.

Maybe the option to choose whether you’d prefer very little heating and restricted power over heating with full power available more quickly would be good, but that moves it away from being as close to possible as a normal car that you jump into and drive.

Maybe also they’ve been over cautious with the battery warming thing, and they’ll tweak it down as more data comes in.
 

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I'm not convinced that the battery heater reduces the winter range by much on a longer trip. A cold battery has a higher internal resistance which warms the battery up. When the battery is electrically heated it reduces the resistance in the first few minutes, a non heated battery still warms up but at a slower rate. That heat in the battery can only come from internal resistance. Given that it's rare for me to use the full power available the biggest difference is that the battery heating allows you to set off on an unplanned trip without charging the battery in advance and then rapid charging after just a few minutes.

I suspect the battery heater will mean I use about 100kWh of additional power each winter which will cost me around £5 for the short journeys to work.
 

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I find mine does quite well. I know I can rely on it to be fairly accurate, especially on longish journeys. One I do regularly is to my parents' place around the M25. It's 78 miles door to door & I know if I drive consistently (not slowly, just "normal") the GOM will be about right. I've often arrived home with around 10 miles left on the GOM when it's said ~90 when leaving.
I can guarantee that it most cars it won’t work if, for example, you’ve been driving around central / suburban London all week getting 5-6mi/kWh and then jump in the car on Saturday and sit at 73mph around the M25. And even more so, if it had been good weather all week and then a storm rolls in on the Saturday morning.

It might be a bit less inaccurate in most cars if you navigate on the M25 using the car’s navigation, but a) I doubt that using Google Maps / Waze etc on CarPlay or Android Auto, as many do, would cause the GOM to adjust and b) I guess that many people don’t bother with navigation at all when travelling on routes they know well.

I can’t see any good reason to not at least have an option to constantly show the SoC% in the binnacle, or to have an option to display charging speed (power) in kW.
 

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Quite a lot on interesting and thoughtful comments on this. 1 particularly interesting comment was around what the manufacturer expects of the user. On one end of the scale should he be a technician to understand all the parameters and variables the car is informing him of . versus . sit in, point and drive ........"I don't need to know or understand any of this stuff". In reality there are quite a number of drivers who happily drive around without knowing/caring about the technical aspects. So where does VW sit on this scale? Anyway here some extra thoughts to throw in the mix.....
a. My wife drives a petrol Audi A1. It has an engine temperature gauge on a scale from Cold/normal operating Temp/Hot. Why can't the ID 3 have the same for the battery? - simple linear digital scale .......if that's too much work/expensive then just put in temperature as a number in degrees C
b. I'm not totally convinced that battery heating is all to do with protecting it.......ref. e.g vw e golf/no BMS system/Nissan Leaf?. Even if its true I would challenge VW on how they set the (aggressive in my mind) heating parameters. Just tweak them down a bit so that short trips in the winter are not so inefficient. Do other EV manufacturers do the same thing/same inefficiency e.g. Hyundai?
c. On the kWh (lack of display) comment.......... ideally I would like to see kWh as well as km/hr (or km/min). I don't think this is necessarily a big deal in this case as you can do a simple sum to determine your kWh charging rate ..... i.e. your km/min divided by your average economy. E.g. my last charging rate at home was 52km/hr divided by my current economy of 7km/kWh gives 7.4kWh approx.
On the bms for egolf/leaf willing to bet they have BMS what they don’t have is active warming/cooling of the battery pack. The BMS saying no to high rates of charge is why leaf rapid gate happened.
 

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Tbh the major battery manufacturers probably know the behaviours of their batteries inside out in terms of performance, longevity, temperature, regen, charging etc
I suspect many BMS decisions are more sales oriented.
For instance range and performance sell EVs. Longevity is at present largely a non issue.
(Although I suspect sooner or later we will see EVs get a battery health assessment either as part of an MOT or as part of the used car sales process)
 

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I still don't understand the complaint about poor efficiency on short winter journeys. The car will do 170 to 200 miles in the winter in normal use which is much further than "a short journey". Even multiple short journeys are within the scope of normal battery consumption.

Battery percentage is available 1 tap away from the main screen if you have it set up as such.

Let's also not forget that VW buys in the battery from a third party who will put limits on the operation of the battery pack in order to maintain the warranty between itself and VW.

Volvo haven't fitted a water or oil temperature gauges to any of their SPA platform cars which have been around for 5 or 6 years now and you never hear anyone complain that they can't see if their temperatures are OK or not. Its not even buried in a menu somewhere. The ECU knows what the temperature is and uses that to alert the driver if action needs to be taken otherwise its just something else for the sake of it.

And my last point, it's a people's car, quite literally, not a car for a few geeks on a forum. It's why keyless entry, a foot on the brake to wake the car up and a very quick twist of a dial to decide if they go backwards or forwards has been implemented. When you go out of your way to make your car as easy to drive and live with as this, it's a bit strange to then go and give the driver multiple options on battery heating or power available depending on what time of the year it is.
 

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There's a big difference between wanting to dissect the technology for your own interest and foisting overcomplications on the average driver who will only care that they can do 200 miles in the Winter and that their car will give them fair warning before they run out of juice.
 
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