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Road pricing will be one solution they should consider. Again a Norweigan example (we have family connections) but road pricing there means you pay depending upon your use and the amount you pollute. So 20,000 miles a year in a diesel will cost much more than 5000 in an EV. Every car is tagged with a small gadget in the windscreen and you are billed monthly. Seems like a simple and fair system for recovering lost government finances that recognises the environmental impact as well.
 

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Thread is going way off topic…

well done VW. I’d like to think the church of EV’s is a broad one - and success across all sectors/segments of the market should be applauded 👏👏

I really like my iD3 - though did start looking yesterday at M3’s as my car now has 5-6k of positive equity…. 😁
 

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Moderator note:

I've attempted to clean all brexit related posts from this thread. It is off topic here and not allowed.

The b word is allowed in off-topic and banter only.

Thank you for your cooperation.
 

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Every car is tagged with a small gadget in the windscreen and you are billed monthly. Seems like a simple and fair system for recovering lost government finances that recognises the environmental impact as well.
Personally I agree and am happy to accept the "loss of personal freedoms" that this incurs. After all my car has (front and rear) legal numberplates and I choose to car a contract android phone with location sharing turned on to a number of apps - some full time. But I can see the tin-foil hat wearers objecting, and people using devices to disguise their car's identity to avoid the tax in a similar way to cloned numberplates. The ICE model of taxing fuel at the point of sale had the significant advantages of simplicity, passing the responsibility to a third party to administer, and directly taxing use (e.g. the lead footed paid for their habit).
 

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Road pricing will be one solution they should consider. Again a Norweigan example (we have family connections) but road pricing there means you pay depending upon your use and the amount you pollute. So 20,000 miles a year in a diesel will cost much more than 5000 in an EV. Every car is tagged with a small gadget in the windscreen and you are billed monthly. Seems like a simple and fair system for recovering lost government finances that recognises the environmental impact as well.
No, no, no and again no!

Every time someone suggests road pricing, anyone with half a social conscious should shut them down in the same way that proponents of hydrogen should be shut down.

Any one previously up in arms about poll tax should be out in the street burning things every time the very idea is mentioned, by comparison to poll tax road pricing is much, much unfairer.

All road pricing does is hugely benefit cronies behind various ANPR schemes and prices the poor out of mobility giving the rich nice convenient clear roads at the time of day they want to travel and makes the poor (who ironically have less choice on when to travel) pay more than their fair share of the burden.


FWIW the good thing about fuel duty is that it is far harder to dodge than other forms of taxation
 

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I'm surprised how high Model 3 sales are, given the woeful build quality and viable alternatives out there now for size/performance e.g. Polestar.
Tesla have largely fixed the quality issues that plagued the early US build Model 3.

In any case, we are getting cars from the China plant that are somewhat different than US production.

See Sandy Munro's review of a recent US built M3 or his interview with Elon.
 

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No, no, no and again no!

Every time someone suggests road pricing, anyone with half a social conscious should shut them down in the same way that proponents of hydrogen should be shut down.

Any one previously up in arms about poll tax should be out in the street burning things every time the very idea is mentioned, by comparison to poll tax road pricing is much, much unfairer.

All road pricing does is hugely benefit cronies behind various ANPR schemes and prices the poor out of mobility giving the rich nice convenient clear roads at the time of day they want to travel and makes the poor (who ironically have less choice on when to travel) pay more than their fair share of the burden.


FWIW the good thing about fuel duty is that it is far harder to dodge than other forms of taxation
How do you suggest the government recovers all the lost £billions of duty from fuel and road tax then? I don't see an alternative. Suggesting that people can't afford it doesn't make sense. They can afford to buy petrol and diesel now at £80 per tank. I think pay per use is fairer than everyone paying a extra tax on their electricity bill for example. Or maybe we could have a tax on EV charging by the kWh? I think my point is we can't expect to have such an easy ride for EVs for ever.
 

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Pay per use is easily the most equitable way to tax car usage. It quite simply taxes when you use your car and how long for! It also opens avenues to manage traffic, air and noise pollution etc.. via time and space variable tarriffs.

The tax can be altered for time of day (rush hour expensive - middle of the night very cheap) to spread load on the roads, and spatially/geographically you can tax busier roads more and rural ones less. This can be used to incentivise public transport use in urban areas without penalising rural drivers where there are few/no alternatives.

This also fits into a future where car ownership is greatly reduced - and people rent/hire/use a car when and where they need it.

However, I suspect our present leader - with his desire to be loved by everyone - will duck out of making this policy...

Its not poll tax (which was per person) its more akin to council tax (per house).

Taxation is full of legacy taxes and vehicle excise duty and fuel duty are really both 'stealth' taxes added by various chancellors over the years to try and opportunistically sneak in a bit more income. If you were to start with a clean sheet of the taxation system perhaps a fairer way would be to look at income tax as a whole and develop a more equitable way of bringing in government income.

Raising taxes (again) is not something our present leader will want to do either...

:)
 

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Pay per use is easily the most equitable way to tax car usage. It quite simply taxes when you use your car and how long for! It also opens avenues to manage traffic, air and noise pollution etc.. via time and space variable tarriffs.

The tax can be altered for time of day (rush hour expensive - middle of the night very cheap) to spread load on the roads, and spatially/geographically you can tax busier roads more and rural ones less. This can be used to incentivise public transport use in urban areas without penalising rural drivers where there are few/no alternatives.

This also fits into a future where car ownership is greatly reduced - and people rent/hire/use a car when and where they need it.

However, I suspect our present leader - with his desire to be loved by everyone - will duck out of making this policy...

Its not poll tax (which was per person) its more akin to council tax (per house).

Taxation is full of legacy taxes and vehicle excise duty and fuel duty are really both 'stealth' taxes added by various chancellors over the years to try and opportunistically sneak in a bit more income. If you were to start with a clean sheet of the taxation system perhaps a fairer way would be to look at income tax as a whole and develop a more equitable way of bringing in government income.

Raising taxes (again) is not something our present leader will want to do either...

:)
Spot on. I think the time of use feature is also being implemented in Norway. I will check with relatives. You already pay more the more polluting the vehicle is so diesel high...petrol less...hybrid lower....EV lowest.
 

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Important to point out that we already pay for use by virtue of the fact cars use fuel or electricity that must be paid for (and is already taxed).

Firstly that fuel duty money isn't disappearing overnight so there is plenty of time to rebalance!

Secondly other forms of more general taxation are available! All taxation goes into a central pot, road/fuel duty related taxations have never been used to directly fund roads or transportation, so rather than there being no visible alternatives you could simply offset by increasing literally any other form of existing taxation (or create other new ones).

Polluter pays type taxations do make sense and I do not oppose them, so I see no reason why we shouldn't increase VAT on electricity, but deliberately creating a new form of taxation that makes life more convenient for the rich (like road pricing) and less convenient for the poor while at the same time making the poor pay more makes no sense.

Also of concern, much of the money raised by road pricing will not go into a central taxation pot but into administration. The costs of providing the cameras and devices used to implement it line the pockets of the corporations that run it and to the overseas countries and to corporations and countries that make them. - You could even argue that ultimately Road Pricing inconveniences domestic users and arguably benefits the two worst polluters in terms of the USA and China by giving them revenue instead of our government money it can actually spend!

My point re poll tax is precisely that road pricing is more unfair. Those on lower pay have less say on when and where they travel. The when and where it is dictated to them by their employers. Also if their free time is at expensive times of travel it will also prevent poorer people opportunity while promoting convenience for the rich.

Adding VAT to electricity comes without those disadvantages, the money previously paid on fuel duty is simply paid on electricity instead and or some of the burden could go onto VAT for luxury goods, high carbon goods, or income tax generally.

What advantage is there to pricing the poor off the road at sensible times? If we think we are struggling with treating HGV drivers badly how will things be when its literally not worth going into work for an even greater proportion of the population forced to work multiple split shifts over different parts of town (or indeed other towns)
 

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Personally I think its great VW is doing so well with its MEP platform in general, and the ID3 in particular

This whole discussion about taxation is a bit off topic, and of course highly political .....
 

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Important to point out that we already pay for use by virtue of the fact cars use fuel or electricity that must be paid for (and is already taxed).

Firstly that fuel duty money isn't disappearing overnight so there is plenty of time to rebalance!

Secondly other forms of more general taxation are available all taxation goes into a central pot, road/fuel duty related taxations have never been used to directly fund roads or transportation so rather than there being no visible alternatives you could simply offset by increasing literally any other form of existing taxation (or create other new ones).

Polluter pays type taxations do make sense and I do not oppose them, so I see no reason why we shouldn't increase VAT on electricity, but deliberately creating a form of taxation that makes more convenient for the rich via road pricing and less convenient for the poor while at the same time making them pay more makes no sense.

Also of concern, much of the money raised by road pricing will not go into a central taxation pot it will go into administration, the costs of providing the cameras and devices used to implement it and into the pockets of the corporations that run it and to the overseas countries and to corporations and countries that make them. - You could even argue that ultimately Road Pricing inconveniences domestic users and arguably benefits the two worst polluters in terms of the USA and China by giving them revenue instead of our government money it can actually spend!

My point re poll tax is precisely that road pricing is more unfair. Those on lower pay have less say on when and where they travel, when and where it is dictated to them by their employers. Also if their free time is at expensive times of travel it will also prevent poorer people opportunity while promoting convenience for the rich.

Adding VAT to electricity comes without those disadvantages, the money previously paid on fuel duty is simply paid on electricity instead and or some of the burden could go onto VAT for luxury goods, high carbon goods, or income tax generally.

What advantage is there to pricing the poor off the road at sensible times? If we think we are struggling with treating HGV drivers badly how will things be when its literally not worth going into work for an even greater proportion of the population forced to work multiple split shifts over different parts of town (or indeed other towns)
Appreciate your points but in practice the example I have seen abroad doesn't work like that. Nobody is talking of pricing the poor off the road. What actually happens is that the vast majority of the worst polluters think again, drive less or switch to a less polluting form of transport. You don't see V8 gas guzzling SUVs anymore. The rich have high end EVs instead. I suspect the poor in either country don't have cars at all so are already doing their bit for the planet. Road pricing is really a middle class debate then. We can afford it and it seems fair.
 

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You are, of course right to some extent, but the difference between rich and poor and economic and social structures (not to mention level of common sense and reasoning) in those countries is somewhat different to the UK...
 

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You are, of course right to some extent, but the difference between rich and poor and economic and social structures (not to mention level of common sense and reasoning) in those countries is somewhat different to the UK...
Most of the people in those countries have a good work ethic, unlike some of the career dole wallers we have here (I include some of my siblings there!).
 

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I'm surprised how high Model 3 sales are, given the woeful build quality and viable alternatives out there now for size/performance e.g. Polestar.
I’m not given their now excellent build quality and how overpriced and underperforming their rivals are. Tesla is wiping the floor with the competition.
 

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I’m not given their now excellent build quality and how overpriced and underperforming their rivals are. Tesla is wiping the floor with the competition.
I think you could say that 24 months ago. I suspect in another 24 months the situation will be somewhat different. It is clear there are simply masses of EVs out there and huge choice. I'm afraid the Model 3 is looking quite old in comparison. It needs a refresh or it will find itself being left behind. How old is it now? Three years?
 

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I think you could say that 24 months ago. I suspect in another 24 months the situation will be somewhat different. It is clear there are simply masses of EVs out there and huge choice. I'm afraid the Model 3 is looking quite old in comparison. It needs a refresh or it will find itself being left behind. How old is it now? Three years?
The model 3 is a lovely car. We took it for a test drive before buying the ID3

I agree that the looks are not so great. The issue is that it's designed to look like a normal car. What I like is an EV designed as an EV. Having a faux bonnet or grill is a real turn off.

The ID3 has no bonnet and has the wheels at the edges of the car. This is taking full advantage of the EV possibilities. Everyone tells me how amazing it is inside for space despite its diminutive appearance outside.

For another £10k more, the tesla would need to be much better, and, apart from the acceleration and speakers in the back 😱, I honestly can't think of any advantage

That doesn't mean it's not a great car. Just that things move on ....
 

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I’m not given their now excellent build quality and how overpriced and underperforming their rivals are. Tesla is wiping the floor with the competition.
That’s just hyperbole I’m afraid, unless you’re judging by a very narrow criteria.

Tesla make some good cars, for sure, but they’re not ‘wiping the floor’ with the competition at all.

The M3 has some strengths absolutely, but some competition has turned up particularly recently which leave it looking weak in some areas too.
 

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The model 3 is a lovely car. We took it for a test drive before buying the ID3

I agree that the looks are not so great. The issue is that it's designed to look like a normal car. What I like is an EV designed as an EV. Having a faux bonnet or grill is a real turn off.

The ID3 has no bonnet and has the wheels at the edges of the car. This is taking full advantage of the EV possibilities. Everyone tells me how amazing it is inside for space despite its diminutive appearance outside.

For another £10k more, the tesla would need to be much better, and, apart from the acceleration and speakers in the back 😱, I honestly can't think of any advantage

That doesn't mean it's not a great car. Just that things move on ....
I think your key point and mine is that "things move on". The M3 is clearly very capable but looking just a bit tired now compared to the competition. Like you I have gone for an ID3.
 
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