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Discussion Starter #1
Mercedes now have an A250e, parallel plug-in hybrid with CCS rapid charging capability.
The car has quoted 42 miles of range, 15.6kWh battery, small 1.3l petrol engine and 75kW electric motor. It's a sign of what's to come, where PHEV will get bigger and bigger batteries while the engine will slowly shrink.

Unlike previous PHEV's such as Golf GTE, 330e, etc. This parallel PHEV is rapid charging capable just like Outlander. Meaning they are eligible to use 50kW rapid charging stations and charge at 30kW. (80% 15.6kWh battery, quoted 25min to achieve 80%)

I've always felt 7kW destination chargers are meant for all plug-in's. But rapid charging should be EV or Range extended EV exclusive because it is a critical infrastructure to enable EV long distance travel. Unlike REx-EV, parallel PHEV has no performance penalties driving with an near empty battery, in another words, unlike solely electric motor driven cars, parallel PHEV does not need rapid charging to continue its journey.


What are your views on parallel PHEV (read: not serial PHEV or REx EV like i3 REx) gaining ability to CCS rapid charge?

(I've put this in EV discussion because I felt it is a car discussion: whether this type of hybrid should gain rapid charging capability. Not a discussion on lack of charging stalls or charging etiquette)
 

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What’s not to like?

I’ve always felt that although the majority of PHEVs have no rapid charging capability, with a small battery they benefit the most from frequent charging to maximise the amount of electric miles driven.

The slow charge speeds though have made frequent charges less than practical and unwelcome at rapid charger units.

30kW capability is fine, and 25-30 mins is a similar time frame to a bigger battery/faster charging EV so shouldn't slow anybody down.

I do detect another tear developing in the EV equilibrium though, with the 100/150kW capable boys and girls starting to make noises about being ‘blocked’ by 40/50kW cars on the ionity etc units!

The in-fighting will seemingly never stop on Planet EV...
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Traditional dealers seems to make zero effort in educating new EV drivers. I've had to teach many new owners the difference between Type 2 and CCS on rapid chargers.

So with more and more PHEV getting rapid charging capability. The difference in charging speed may not be apparent. People may end up using rapid charging sites in the same way as 7kW destination charging spots.

It's less about the vehicle charging speed, more about lack of knowledge and care by small number people in the way they use public resource, causing huge inconveniences to those who actually need the resource.




Off topic: The solution to 150kW chargers vs 50kW capable cars is time based fee structure. You'll not see any 50kW cars using 150kW chargers if there are 50kW chargers nearby, I can guarantee it.
 

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Traditional dealers seems to make zero effort in educating new EV drivers. I've had to teach many new owners the difference between Type 2 and CCS on rapid chargers.

So with more and more PHEV getting rapid charging capability. The difference in charging speed may not be apparent. People may end up using rapid charging sites in the same way as 7kW destination charging spots.

It's less about the vehicle charging speed, more about lack of knowledge and care by small number people in the way they use public resource, causing huge inconveniences to those who actually need the resource.




Off topic: The solution to 150kW chargers vs 50kW capable cars is time based fee structure. You'll not see any 50kW cars using 150kW chargers if there are 50kW chargers nearby, I can guarantee it.
I don't mind the option Polar seem to be taking where they charge higher per kWh for 150kW compared to 50kW. If you want to pay more to charge the car sure go ahead.
 

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Off topic: The solution to 150kW chargers vs 50kW capable cars is time based fee structure. You'll not see any 50kW cars using 150kW chargers if there are 50kW chargers nearby, I can guarantee it.
What is needed is for charging to be a mixture of kWh-based and time-based charging, ie a per kWh charge with a minimum per minute charge equal to the charging rate of the next slowest charger on the site. ie. on a site with a 150kW charger, a 43/50kW charger, and a 22kW charger, the minimum charge per minute on the 150kW charger should be equal to the charge for 43kW, and the minimum charge per minute on the 43/50kW charger should be equal to the charge for 22kW (could be argued it should be equal to the charge for 7kW), and on the 22kW charger there should be only a nominal minimum charge per minute to prevent excessive charger hogging.
 

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Going slightly off-topic, for cars such as the Leaf and eNV200, which are supposed to charge at 50kW, the most I've ever seen on a standard rapid is 43kW. If one of those was plugged into a 150kW charger, would they get a full 50kW?
 

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I cannot see how the 'I am more deserving than you' market would work. Largely because I cannot see any natural limit to the logic that would drive it. Do we control access to everything on a perceived need basis or just some things. How would we decide? How come we only make these calls when it suits me or you but not when it would suit others? Who would decide? The task of defining who the privileged ones were would be huge. At a motorway service station, for example, would the cafe have faster queues for ICE drivers because the EV ones have got to be there for 45 minutes to charge anyway? Do business drivers trump leisure ones at chargers because their trip is for commerce, and therefore jobs, are at stake?

A BMW i3 Rex driver could fill up with petrol instead of charging and continue their journey. So could the driver of this Mercedes. I think you are saying that the BMW driver is deserving yet the Mercedes owner isn't. Really? Who decided that? How would that be justified in a court of law? Because the Mercedes can go further or faster perhaps? What if a supercar pulls up that can empty its fuel tank in minutes, does it become first in the queue?
 

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How long before some idiots are leaving them on rapids for the full 90mins even when full and the cable is locked on...
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I think you are saying that the BMW driver is deserving yet the Mercedes owner isn't. Really? Who decided that?
You are looking at this from who decides one person's "needs" is higher than the other. The quoted sentence is the reasoning behind my OP.

The BMW i3 REx will enter reduced power mode if battery is run too low. Its REx is not able to generate enough power to sufficiently power the car if maximum power is demanded. The RExEV is in effect an BEV with a backup plan.

The parallel plug-in hybrid can fully function without needing to plug in.

Thus PHEV has a much less need to use rapid charging facilities. The physical construction of the car decides that.


Then, there's the problem where traditional dealerships don't put any effort into customer education. Uninformed A250e driver would treat rapid chargers the same as 7kW destination parking spots........ CCS cable locked for hours.
 

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Exactly that.
A PHEV, should logically be lower down the priority tree than a REx. The names and their designs lead to this.
A PHEV can do at least 100miles on the petrol/diesel fuel it can carry with it.
A REx will barely do 30miles.
CCS connector just makes it worse for people as they can't then release the connector when the charge is complete and need to await the owners return as the plug is locked in.. At least with CHADEMO it can be easily released.
I very much doubt any CCS PHEV will automatically unlock the plug when it reaches 85% SOC....
For all the grief Mitsi owners get, Mitsi saw this and used their noggins.
 

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CCS connector just makes it worse for people as they can't then release the connector when the charge is complete and need to await the owners return as the plug is locked in.. At least with CHADEMO it can be easily released.
I didn't know that (about CCS). That's another weakness in the spec then.
 

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Its uses the Type2 part for locking in so it does it. I found this out when i had the e-golf and the i3... Rock up to a rapid and someone had wandered off and left their ipace plugged in... Second time was another i3 :( was slightly miffed and hoped that polar had penalised them both for it but doubt it.
 

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CCS cable locked for hours.
I think Overstay fees should discourage that. Once an owner gets stung for £10 (or whatever) surely they won't do it again?

Even if cables were not locked, personally I would not unplug someone.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
This is turning into a charging discussion....... ah well...

Even if cables were not locked, personally I would not unplug someone.
I think it's fine to unplug at rapid chargers if not charging. After all, the cable does not belong to the vehicle owner. Their use of it ended when charging stopped.

I always close the weather proofing lid or put the cap back in but not touch the bodywork flap.

In fact, I carry around an "okay to unplug" sign that I hang around the plug. Only been used for Ikea trips though.
I'm thinking of using it at workplace car park, but don't want my cable to be left out collecting rain water.......
 

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I didn't know that (about CCS). That's another weakness in the spec then.
Wandering further off topic...eTron has a software option to release the CCS connector when charging has completed. Turned on day 1 in my case, not that I have a habit of abandoning it on Rapids ... but the default is not to release unfortunately.
 

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Going slightly off-topic, for cars such as the Leaf and eNV200, which are supposed to charge at 50kW, the most I've ever seen on a standard rapid is 43kW. If one of those was plugged into a 150kW charger, would they get a full 50kW?
If the battery allows that, yes.

The 43kW you speak of... I assume you are talking about a DBT Rapid, just like the person below you? They are one of the few chargers I know which make it publicly clear what speed you are charging at. These DBT units are actually limited to 42.5kW so you will never see faster that this on them.

The Tritium 50kW rapid units also show what is being dispensed and I have seen 46kW displayed at peak on them with a 30kWh LEAF.

On a higher powered unit, I have seen it flicker between 48 and 49 very briefly but then it quickly returns to sit in the mid 40’s.

There isn’t going to be a noticeable difference to you. Especially if these chargers become more expensive it’s best to stick with a 50kW charger for the sake of being maybe a minute (at best) faster to hit 80%
 

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Exactly that.
A PHEV, should logically be lower down the priority tree than a REx. The names and their designs lead to this.
A PHEV can do at least 100miles on the petrol/diesel fuel it can carry with it.
A REx will barely do 30miles.
What REx only does 30 miles on its petrol tank?

Even in my old i3 60Ah, I needed the REx frequently, but it was still good for 65-75 miles. It could maintain 65 miles per hour all day long at that, subject to refuelling, there was no performance loss, just a steady range drop if you were using more battery power than the REx could put back.

I don’t know why we think so little of our fellow drivers that we automatically assume that an ‘idiot PHEV driver’ is going to block a rapid for hours.

REx/Hybrid/Whatever, if you can take sufficient power from a rapid, then you’re entitled to be there. That’s before you even consider whether you’ve paid to be there.

Once again, all the arguments would be moot if there were just more easily accessible chargers of all sorts out there.
 
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