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This is precisely the reason why I don't think parallel PHEV should get rapid charging capability. The reason for the thread.

There is no "rule" needed. There is no legal stance needed. There is no punishment required. There is no need to understand car technology.
There is only differences between plug sockets on the cars to distinguish between cars that really need rapid charger to continue their journey and cars that doesn't loose functionality when out of electricity.

It's unfortunate (but expected) legacy car manufacturers are taking this long winded evolutionary approach to electric vehicles. This Mercedes A250e is a sign of what's to come: rapid capable PHEV and confused users thinking all chargers are parking spots. Creating confusion, unintended but undesirable behaviour and slowing EV adoption.
You can change every question I asked to be a moral rather than a legal issue. Why would a well-driven Mercedes with an empty petrol tank, that is only being used within its electric range, be morally less deserving of green power, or be (in your words) less in need, than a badly-driven BMW with a full fossil fuel tank for example?

Next we will be saying that cars with built-in solar panels should not have fast-charge capability because they have a second energy source - and one that can be wired serially.

If drivers start to learn how to use charging infrastructure through hybrids, then adoption will be quicker not slower. I believe that PHEV vehicles are a flawed concept and will be gone from the market very soon but they are serving a purpose in encouraging and educating drivers to go electric.
 

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Discussion Starter #42
If drivers start to learn how to use charging infrastructure through hybrids, then adoption will be quicker not slower.
That's a HUMONGOUS "If".

I'm not going to taint everyone with the same brush, there could be well driven knowledgeable PHEV drivers as well as ignorant REx EV drivers, or vice versa, it's never about singular individuals. It's about drivers of particular vehicle as a collective. As a collective, vast majority will learn this new technology from dealerships, will not visit internet forums such as this one. I have say traditional dealerships are not helping EV adoption and are not educating correct use of chargers.

Thus, it's far simpler to be plug/socket limited than creating confusion for drivers, who may not see or care the difference between 30min at rapid vs 2 hours at slower destination charger. Thus cannot grasp the importance of rapid chargers for BEV drivers.



I think too much emphasis has been placed on parallel PHEV vs series REx EV. It was only mentioned because REx EV such as i3 REx is an EV first, it advertises all benefits of BEV. But it has been grouped together with much lesser plug-in petrol hybrid cars that are hybrid ICE cars first, EV as an add-on.
 

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Discussion Starter #43
Maybe I am misreading some comments too but I get the impression that EV drivers are VERY comfortable around their home locations but do sound a bit anxious and needing to "plan ahead" when going long distances.
You are not misreading, this is indeed the current state of affairs.

Currently, mainly due to lack of charging hubs, like how all petrol stations have multiple pumps, BEV drivers have to have plan B may be even plan C. The single rapid charger at the location may not be available (another EV charging, offline, etc).

This is why I still feel Tesla is the only viable long distance BEV. All their supercharger stations I've seen are at very least 6 stalls, often 8 or 12 stalls There is rarely any car other than Tesla's using those locations, meaning very high availability.

Thus, I was disappointed to see this A250e PHEV get CCS rapid charging, it's a sign of what's to come: Uninformed PHEV drivers taking up the very limited resource at motorway services where their car doesn't need the charge to continue their journey on the motorway.
 

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There are ignorant selfish people driving all sorts of cars, BEVs included, the sooner that we stop labelling everybody and making assumptions based on what car they drive the better as far as I’m concerned.

The solution is more chargers of all types at more locations, that’s it.

We won’t change the behaviour of people any time soon, install more chargers and the consequences of it goes away though.

I’m sure there are a few charging muppets driving Tesla’s, you just don’t notice it when they’re occupying 1 stall of 10, and anyway Tesla ensure they pay for it via overstay charges.
 

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Discussion Starter #46
But you cannot deny there is a higher percentage of people bought PHEV and never plug in, never adapted their usage pattern to learn EV lifestyle, compared to REx EV. I put that down to the physical construction of the car, the ICE is not sufficiently removed from the drivetrain.

Unlike people on this forum. Those people who never plug-in, never adapt to EV's, will also never seek out correct ways to use public charging infrastructure or never take the tiny effort to understand difference between rapid and destination charging. So dealership hand-over education is critical. But we all know how much effort traditional dealers put into educating about charging.


I've always said time-based fee structure is best for rapid or faster chargers. This is the only way to educate people and the best way to prevent 50kW cars using 350kW chargers.
(even if 350kW is slightly more expensive per kWh, it doesn't have sufficient impact as time based fee structure)

Of course, if rate of infrastructure install exceeds plug-in car adoption rate, we won't have any problem. But unfortunately I fear that is wishful thinking.
Hence, I'm concentrating on the cars. If plugs are incompatible, just as we all cheered InstaVolt's removal of Type 2, there won't be any confusion.
 

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But you cannot deny there is a higher percentage of people bought PHEV and never plug in, never adapted their usage pattern to learn EV lifestyle, compared to REx EV.

Unlike people on this forum. Those people who never plug-in, never adapt to EV's...
I can neither confirm nor deny that, and I suspect you can’t either, it’s just impossible to know from just anecdotal experience.

If PHEV drivers don’t plug in, you should be happy with that! You can’t have it both ways.

One of my wife’s colleagues has an i3 company car, he sometimes goes 2 or 3 days without plugging in and stops to keep refilling the tank. The BIK savings are worth it right?

I would never say he’s typical of i3 owners though.

Repeat the mantra, ‘more chargers and it won’t matter’.
 

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If plugs are incompatible, just as we all cheered InstaVolt's removal of Type 2, there won't be any confusion.
Probably not Zoe owners, though. (Although socketed Type 2 would still preclude the misuse of tethered Type 2 by new CCS users who weren't told by their dealers how to use a rapid charger.)
 

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Discussion Starter #50
If PHEV drivers don’t plug in, you should be happy with that! You can’t have it both ways.
I think you, like the potential Merc A250e driver, are confusing rapid charging with overnight destination charging ;)

EV, doesn't matter type, plug in to slow charge as much as possible.
EV that depend on rapid infrastructure to drive further should be only ones allowed to use the rapids.
 

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I think you, like the potential Merc A250e driver, are confusing rapid charging with overnight destination charging ;)

EV, doesn't matter type, plug in to slow charge as much as possible.
EV that depend on rapid infrastructure to drive further should be only ones allowed to use the rapids.
I’m not confused, unlike the owners of the Nissan Leaf and Merc EQ400C I encountered the other night that were effectively parked for the evening blocking 2 x Rapids.
 

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There are ignorant selfish people driving all sorts of cars, BEVs included, the sooner that we stop labelling everybody and making assumptions based on what car they drive the better as far as I’m concerned.

The solution is more chargers of all types at more locations, that’s it.
Spot on.

There is no "automatic right' one way or another to access charging points. The answer is not to try and label one another "EV" or "PHEV" but to get more charging infrastructure - but if that encourages more EV/PHEV vehicles will the infrastructure keep pace with that growth - or ideally ahead of it?

How on earth are the UK and Ireland going to reach their respective government set electric vehicle targets unless there is a radical improvement in the charging infrastructure? I personally cannot blame people sticking with an ICE car at present and as said above I didn't feel confident in Ireland to put my faith in a pure EV given the needs of my driving patterns.

PS: as a PHEV driver I do use charging points when available. In a relatively short PHEV driving experience I have also encountered both EVs and PHEVs 'blocking' the limited number of points round where I live in Co Cork. As th most convenient one is near a supermarket with limited parking I have my suspicions...😊
 

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Discussion Starter #53
It's not about "automatic right" to use one type of charger over another. It's about simple needs as result of construction of the car.

Rapid charging, by definition, is rapid. It is intended to be used middle of the journey to allow EV to continue their journey.
Parallel PHEV, by definition, is a parallel hybrid. It has alternative power source that is also able to drive the wheels and drive the car with zero difference to the driver. It does not need charging to continue its journey, so should not be made compatible.



If you want to talk about the root reason for lack of confidence in driving EV long range. A charging discussion. It's not only lack of rapid infrastructure, it's also due to uninformed people using rapids to "charge to 100%" or inconsiderate people using as parking spots close to entrances. But with more and more PHEV getting ability to use rapids, while also being a type of car that functions like a normal ICE and doesn't require as much research as BEV, I fear the uninformed will cause the confidence level driving EV's long distance to go the other way!

More chargers won't solve lack of confidence. We need 3-10 times more rapid charging stalls at each locations to solve this. Aka charging hubs. Unfortunately this level of infrastructure won't happen in the near or mid future, considering each rapid charger costs ££££.

It's a very limited vital resource required by a specific type of vehicle to drive long distance.
PHEV's today like GTE work very well. Just add 7kW AC charging and bigger battery.
 
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