Speak EV - Electric Car Forums banner
1 - 20 of 154 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
8 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi everyone,

This is my first post on here and first EV car and I am experiencing a nightmare of PCN since I have it (early 2021) so I hope some of you will be able to help me out understanding how to behave so I stop having to pay or being misinformed by the "private lands" and parking rules whilst I am charging my car.

Experience 1 : My first Public Charge and PCN - April 2021

Context
: Tesco in Gosport, Pod Point Charge Point (free to use) , PCN /car park manager: Horizon

I charged my car there for 7 hours - until my car was nearly fully charged as it is a slow charger. this meant I left the car park when the Tesco was closed, just after 9pm on a Sunday. There is no barriers or signs around the EV saying you cannot charge in certain hours, and I assumed I could thus charge at and for any time.

I received a PCN Notice a few weeks later. I went to appeal, the PCN was with a status "cancelled" so did not appear anymore and I though the system of identifying EV car charging was actually working.

However, a few weeks ago, a new PCN get issued to me for this same event (we are now end of June). So I go through the appeal process on the Horizon website, mention that I wasn't parking but charging and provided the picture of the PodPoint sign with the signage "at any time" which I understood literally meant at any time.

Question 1: Is this right by the way or does this sign present at most Tesco and Pod Point charger means that I have to only "charge" for the time limit of the "park" limit, in that case 2hours as per the 2nd picture?

Response to my Horizon appeal:
The Parking Charge Notice was issued lawfully and in full and proper accordance with the Code of Practice issued by the British Parking Association (the ‘BPA’).

There are signs located at the entrance to, and within the car park that state the terms and conditions that apply when parking.

The signs throughout the car park are clear and comply fully with the BPA’s prescribed rules and regulations. When parking on private land, it is the driver’s responsibility to ensure they adhere to the terms and conditions of the car park concerned.

Given the above, and whilst we have considered your representations carefully, on this occasion your appeal has been rejected.

Question 2:
Is it worth going to POPLA and appeal?

Question 3 :
What is my argument ?
they totally ignored my appeal argument which clearly explained that I wasnt parking but charging. And secondly that there were no sign saying I could only charge for a limited amount of time.

PS: I still have 9 days to appeal to POPLA.

146874
146875




Experience 2: My 2nd and 3rd Public Charge and PCN - April and May 2021

Context: Sheffield, Morrison Car Park, Pod Point Charge Point (free to use) , PCN /car park manager: EuroCar park


This car park is very small and it is impossible not to see the signs stating that a car can only park for a maximum of 90 minutes. It is everywhere apart from the signs where you are placing your EV car to charge. on these bay, the signs are as below, which does not mention any specific time but refers to the T&Cs of the car park provider. So I go on the T&Cs, do not see anything related to EV car charging and assumed that I could charge as long as my car needed to charge.

A few weeks later, I get issued with my 1st PCN from EuroCar Parks. I went back to the car park, looked around, checked again for any signs mentioning timing limit to charge (or park on EV bays) but saw nothing. (see picture). So I go with confidence on Eurocarparks website and appeal.

Meanwhile, I had gone again to this car park to charge my car (for much longer than 90 minutes, slow charger) as I was absolutely sure that the time limit and opening hours of Morrison wouldn't apply to me since I was charging, not parking.

Response from Euro Car Parks:
Having carefully considered the evidence provided by you we have decided to reject your appeal for the following reasons:  The car park is operated by Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) – cameras capture an image of vehicles entering and leaving the car park and calculate their length of stay.  The car park in question is on private land and upon entering such land vehicles are subject to the terms and conditions of parking as shown on the signage. This signage quite clearly states that if your vehicle is in breach of the terms and conditions of the car park then a Parking Charge Notice will be issued.  Parking at the above site is limited to 90 minutes Monday to Sunday 05:00 hours to 20:15 hours. There is a maximum stay of 15 minutes outside of these hours. Please see attached.  On entry to private land it is the responsibility of the driver to check for signage and ensure that your vehicle has been correctly parked.  Your vehicle was parked longer than 90 minutes, therefore the notice was issued correctly and remains payable.

My Actions:
I went back again to Morrison, and asked to speak to the store Manager. I then asked about the rules of the Car park and the manager only referred back to Eurocarparks managing it all. I then asked if they had people in my situation and indeed, a local resident had been caught in the same situation. The manager did not know whether r not the local resident did appeal to POPLA or not nor the outcome.

Knowing I was expected another PCN notice from my 2nd charge of overstaying +90 minutes, each charge being £50 if you pay it now or £85 if you pay after or lose a POPLA appeal I thought I would pay and never go to this car park again.

Question 1:
Can I actually charge there for more than 90 minutes?

Question 2:
If yes, can I charge only during the operating hours of the Morrison?

Question 3:
How can I avoid receiving PCN every time i charge at a car park???

146876


Thank you for taking the time of reading me, and many, many thanks in advance for hopefully helping me understanding the rules and how to behave through this absolute nightmare that is my current stressing life of owning and driving and EV car right now.

Lily.
 

·
Registered
MG5
Joined
·
1,136 Posts
When you say you are not 'parked' are you in the car still?
Is there ever another car charging at the same time?
Do you shop in the supermarket?
If you leave the car how do you know if someone wants to use the charger while they are shopping and you are taking up the charging space for 7 hours. Do you leave your number on your vehicle so they can contact you to move it?
I think it might be cheaper for you to pay for charging.😁
 

·
Registered
Zoe ZE50 GTline CCS
Joined
·
903 Posts
The Tesco one is the same as ours in Watford.. the car park there however has a 3 hour limit.. that takes precedence for the whole of the car park. So if you leave a car on a charger for more than that time u get a ticket... The small sign at the charger is stating no parking at any time... Unless it's an ev charging. But I'm afraid just because we have EVs doesn't mean we get to overstay the main parking restrictions in the car park. The chargers are basically destination chargers at 7kw and would never fill larger batteries in the 2 or 3 hours allowed.

I'm sorry you have had so many tickets but the only way to avoid one is to go by the general time limit shown at the entrance and displayed around the car park before you plug in. Also several will issue a ticket if the car park is technically closed after trading hours..

Some businesses like hotels/pubs let you charge in there car parks but you most require to register at reception to stop the automatic issue of a parking ticket after 15mins..

I don't think you will have any right of appeal, but please in future go by the main parking times and you will be ok.
 

·
Registered
Audi eTron 55
Joined
·
1,180 Posts
I sort of understand the distinction you're trying to draw between parking and charging...but I think you're on to a looser with this. If you need to charge, use a rapid. If you want a quick top up whilst you shop, use the supermarket posts.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,635 Posts
I agree, you have to read the signs very carefully.

So my Local Tesco is 2hrs max - whereas my Local Asda is not limited as long as the store is open.

So that is the rule you need to abide by.....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,635 Posts
Yes, although to be honest I think some stores don’t “get” charging at all.

So the 2hr Tesco I get - “come and visit our store, for free, and while you are here, charge for free.” However, it’s also “we aren’t here just to provide you with free charging, so if we limit you to 2 hrs - everyone is happy”. That's fine, I understand their thinking and agree wholeheartedly with it.....

But I can’t understand the Asda.... “Welcome. Our charger is here and we’ve put no time limit on it, take as much electricity as you want. However we are going to charge you a £1.20 connection fee - so if you are only buying bananas, and will be 5 min, you’ll get about 2/3 of a KWh - and that will cost you £1.20 - extortionate. However, stay from 6am until 10pm, charge your 100KWh electric car and we will STILL only charge you £1.20 - a bargain at about 1p per KW - but you aren’t a customer, because who will sit in their car for 16hours or takes 16hours to do a weekly shop?.....”. That makes absolutely NO sense to me. Nor to anyone else, because I never see a car plugged into it - except mine when i'm not at work (so can't charge there) and have run so flat that a home 3-pin charge would take 40hrs but plugging in there would take 6..... I then park up and leave it - there are 3 other chargers so I'm not stopping anyone else charging, (and as said, no-one else uses them)! Really handy, but what's in it for Asda?

I would point out, I do ALL my shopping there pretty much, so am a customer....

The Tesco model is far better.... OR have a paid for Rapid - at least then in 20 min of shop you could do a decent charge!
 

·
Premium Member
ID.4 GTX & M3 LR
Joined
·
10,500 Posts
I think the most painless way to sort this is to just pay the 2 PCNs, chalk it up to experience and move on.

Life is too short to argue such things, and whilst I get the frustration at having a charging facility that is difficult to take maximum advantage of, the main car park restrictions would appear to take precedence.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,740 Posts
How can I avoid receiving PCN every time i charge at a car park???
Don't stay longer than the parking time limit.

To charge your car you first have to PARK it. Ergo it is parked and subject to the rules of parking. Being parked at a charge-point doesn't change that unless there are signs specifically exempting charging EVs from such limits. If not then you must abide by the rules.
As mentioned, many/most car parking of this type is monitored with ANPR, so it's not the time parked per se, it's the time from entering to leaving (they probably add a few minutes for finding a space, etc.). ANPR doesn't know or care if you have an EV or been charging - it's simply a bit of code: [Is exit time minus entry time greater than limit time? If yes, send bill.]
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
554 Posts
Unfortunately you’ve broken their time limit rules, regardless of charging 😕
I must admit, I couldn’t imagine leaving my car (parked &) charging for 7hrs in the local supermarket, they’ve usually always got a limit of a few hours
I’m sure it’d be cheaper to pay for charging elsewhere, designed for faster charging
I don’t bother with these types of chargers, they’re far too slow
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7,601 Posts
Supermarkets are installing chargers to keep up with the competition. so we can deduce that the one that started the ball rolling installed slow chargers as a marketing ploy.
It's only a matter of time until one chain installs rapids or even fast chargers (several 25kw chademo/ccs chargers if power supply is limited). Then the others will follow like sheep.
 

·
Read Only
Joined
·
0 Posts
Supermarkets are installing chargers to keep up with the competition. so we can deduce that the one that started the ball rolling installed slow chargers as a marketing ploy.
It's only a matter of time until one chain installs rapids or even fast chargers (several 25kw chademo/ccs chargers if power supply is limited). Then the others will follow like sheep.
I think part of what you have said is right. It's keeping up with the competition without giving away a significant amount of free electricity. In effect it's a 'greenwash' that doesn't really benefit anybody apart from the perceived image of the supermarket or avoiding criticism if they don't provide at least one charger.

I don't agree with you regarding they will upgrade to 22kW+ chargers as the installation will be expensive and it will cost more in free electricity. Actually not free, they will pass the charge on by spreading it across all customers as someone has to pay for it.

Personally, if I'm on holiday journey then I will be looking for a supermarket with 22kW+ charger that will cost maybe 30p/kWh, shop / eat for an hour and then carry on with the journey. 7kW is useless and they know it.
 

·
Registered
2020 Vauxhall Corsa-e Elite Nav 7kw
Joined
·
246 Posts
I really do feel for you with so many fines, but do generally agree with some of the people above. These chargers were not installed for you to charge your car from empty to full. They’re to give you a top up while you visit the shops, so arguably you (and others) are being cheeky by taking Tesco’s power and not giving them your custom at the same time.

The signs in supermarket car parks are clear in their time limits generally, and even if charging you are parking. I personally don’t think you’ll win an appeal.

Generally nothing in life is free, and if it is, it’s probably too good to be true.
 

·
Registered
Kia E Niro 4
Joined
·
1,107 Posts
If Gosport Tesco is the same as Fareham then the parking regulations are 30 minutes free or 3 hours max with a £5 spend. You need to log your exit on the machines, sometimes not working but time restrictions still apply. So spend a £5 and get 3 hours free 7Kw charger. Fareham also has a Rapid 50Kw which is chargeable.

You would be better off using the Osprey Rapid Charger at Starbucks on the A32 as it is on free vend at the moment, apparently until the end of the month. I regret that you are liable for the Parking Charge.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
959 Posts
I'd complain to Podpoint, that the parking time limit is not clearly stated at the chargepoint and that it isn't clear that users of the chargepoint can be fined if they over stay.

Indeed i wonder if the signage at the Morrisons car park might work in your favour because I can't see any reference to a time limit, it states parking for electric vehicles while charging with no reference to a time limit. You might argue you saw that sign, had an EV and were charging, so compliant with the requirements. If a time limit applies it should be included on the signage and it isn't.

I think this will become a real issue going forward, there's lots of places where the only local charging is a local supermarket and inevitably people will want to leave cars plugged in for several hours if they need a charge and there's no other public charging around.
 

·
Registered
Hyundai Kona 2021 64kWh Premium
Joined
·
213 Posts
I think part of what you have said is right. It's keeping up with the competition without giving away a significant amount of free electricity. In effect it's a 'greenwash' that doesn't really benefit anybody apart from the perceived image of the supermarket or avoiding criticism if they don't provide at least one charger.

I don't agree with you regarding they will upgrade to 22kW+ chargers as the installation will be expensive and it will cost more in free electricity. Actually not free, they will pass the charge on by spreading it across all customers as someone has to pay for it.

Personally, if I'm on holiday journey then I will be looking for a supermarket with 22kW+ charger that will cost maybe 30p/kWh, shop / eat for an hour and then carry on with the journey. 7kW is useless and they know it.
This! So I need unlooping which is going to take a few months… prob a month or so after my car is delivered. The Tesco by me has 50kW rapids for 26p per kWh… more than happy to swap to Tesco instead of Sainsbury’s cause I can do a rapid charge twice a week without loosing any “time” as I’d be spending that hour ish of time in a supermarket anyway.

Quite happy paying as it’s still cheaper than a instavolt/electric highway that would of been the alternative. If they manage to roll these rapids out to most big Tesco’s I think they could be on to a winner! Not free as it’s rapid, but cheap enough that they pay for the electric/maintenance while bringing in new customers!
 

·
Registered
Zoe Q90
Joined
·
171 Posts
I had a similar experience when charging at my local Tesco. The only signage at the charge points is ‘Electric vehicle recharging point only - no parking at any time’, so I left it there for a few hours until it had fully charged.

A few weeks later I got a PCN from Horizon as I’d overstayed their maximum 3 hour parking limit. I appealed this on the basis that I was charging not parking (the clear logic being that if charging your car counts as parking then everyone who charges there is in violation of their ‘no parking’ signage). They refused the appeal, as did POPLA. I’ve told them I won’t be paying it and have heard nothing from them for a couple of months.

I’m not really concerned with my case, but I enquired with the British Parking Association as I felt neither Horizon or POPLA were willing to acknowledge their contradictory signage. Unfortunately their code of practice doesn’t cover anything around ensuring parking providers provide unambiguous signage, but they did say that the government are drafting a single code of practice for all providers.

I also contacted Tesco and PodPoint to determine who was responsible for the signage, as I knew this would happen to other people. It seems to be Tesco, but I didn’t get anywhere with trying to persuade them to make their signage clearer.
 
1 - 20 of 154 Posts
Top