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Discussion Starter #1
Hello,

I’m wondering about what LeafSpy shows me: one of the 96 cells is out of balance all the time, no matter how I charge or discharge the battery. It is not a weak cell because it does not charge faster than the other cells. Its voltage stays 40 - 60 mV below the average. In LeafSpy, this particular cell (no. 68) always appears in blue, while the other cells are red (shunted) unless the battery is being charged.

My 30 kWh Leaf is 2.5 years old, with quite a low mileage (~ 2800 miles). I have not yet had a turtle, not even a LBW, I always charge before the battery gets too low (~ 25% dashboard, i.e. > 30% true SOC according to LeafSpy).

What do you think, could it be the thing described at
30kWh Leaf Cell Imbalance and Complete Cell Failure - EVs Enhanced

Has anyone ever noticed something similar?
 

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So even if you Level 2 charge the car to completion (until it switches off, not just until it says 100%) it is still 40-60mV below the rest ?

That is not normal... What are the other figures like SoH ? Can you show a Leaf spy screenshot ?
 

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Discussion Starter #3
7FB5EA01-9723-48E0-A972-048165A4477C.jpeg


Here is a recent screenshot. I have tried charging overnight and leaving the car plugged in, but it made no difference. The graph looks like this at any SOC, regardless of quick charging / L2 charging / not charging. Surprisingly, there does not seem to be any significant self-discharge, not even on the blue cell. However, something must have happened in the past, because the graph was normal (diff ~ 11 mV) when the car was less than a year old (when I used LeafSpy for the first time). Since then I have not used LeafSpy for a long time, until recently.

Does this make any sense to anyone?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Last week I did two quick charges from about 30% to full in one day, and the week before I did one quick charge from 26% to 91%. I watched LeafSpy when charging, and all cells’ bars moved up at the same speed, so the diff stayed between ~ 40 to 60 mV. If the 68th cell was weak, I would expect it to charge faster than the other cells, but it did not happen.

I also watched LeafSpy at the end of a L2 charging process (6 kW from my wallbox). For the last 45 minutes, nothing was happening: voltage of all cells changed very little, if at all. When the 3 blue lights went out, the diff was near the lower bound (40 mV), and no further balancing happened when I left the car plugged in more than 12 hours after the full charge.

Now I know 60 mV is not too bad, e.g. LeafSpy only performs the so-called CVLI test when the diff is more than 100 mV (or perhaps 200 mV, I am not sure). I thought I would get there with a low SOC, but 26% on the dashboard is still 36.4% according to LeafSpy (BMS). I do not have the courage to go much lower than that, not with my family (3 kids) on the back seat. Who knows, the dash might go from showing significant range and remaining SOC to very little in a short space of time (30kWh Leaf Cell Imbalance and Complete Cell Failure - EVs Enhanced).

The question is how long it is going to take before the diff gets above a critical threshold and some DTC (P33E6) shows up on the diagnostics. From what I have read about it, Nissan will not recognize the issue before that happens. In my case, it took 2.5 years to develop a diff of 50 +/- 10 mV. What do you think I can expect by the end of the 8th year when my warranty expires?
 

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I wonder if its a faulty voltage sensor for the cell ?

Even if there is a weak cell the cars balancing system should eventually be able to get them all up to the same voltage at 100% SoC, even if it takes a few cycles to get there.

An imbalance at a low SoC suggests a faulty cell but an imbalance at 100% SoC that never goes away no matter how many cycles suggests a problem with the voltage measuring or balancing system, such as the transistor that switches in the bleed resistor for the cell being shorted.

Imagine the scenario where the bleed resistor for that cell is permanently connected due to a faulty transistor switch or control circuit - during charging it charges slightly slower than the other cells and falls behind, forcing all the other cells to run their bleeders constantly (shown in your screenshot) towards the end of the charge which is only just enough to maintain the status quo, not to improve the balance. Because the bleeder for that cell can never be switched off, it can never catch up, and over time it's likely to get worse.

If it's still under the battery warranty period and mileage I would be taking it to Nissan to get it checked over...
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Ok, thanks, @DBMandrake , for your detailed explanation. It does make a lot of sense, indeed. I guess that, sooner or later, I will have to talk to Nissan about it, but do you think they can diagnose it without opening the battery pack and physically extracting the corresponding module? I doubt it, which is why I do not think they would be eager to help.

Now I am thinking if there is an easy way to verify / confirm your hypothesis, I mean something I could do myself. Before I talk to my dealer, I would like to get more information and gather as much evidence as possible. For example, would it not be useful to know what happens below LBW / VLBW / turtle? I understand it is not very good for the battery to get so low, but hopefully it should not do much harm if I only try it once, in a controlled scenario (in my garage or near a charging station).

If the 68th cell is bleeding as you suggest, then if I charge from turtle to 100% very slowly (the slower, the more noticeable effect I would expect), the cell will hardly get any charge at all (because whatever gets in will also get out), while all of the other cells will eventually reach 100%. You said that, towards the end of the charge, all “normal” cells are forced to run their bleeders, but I do not think that is the case, because LeafSpy shows everything in blue until charging stops completely.

Now, of course I cannot charge the battery slowly enough for the gain to be equal to the loss due to bleeding. Still, the slower the charge, the bigger gap (diff in mV) I would expect at 100%. So instead of using CHAdeMO, perhaps I should trickle charge my Leaf using the granny cable for ~ 15+ hours; then if your theory is right, the diff will grow above 60 mV soon.

Btw, today I have made another 75-mile roundtrip, quick charged once from about 50% to 100%, and the diff seemed to decrease a bit (from 50 mV back to 40 mV) rather than increase as a result. Together with your post, that is what leads me to the above reasoning. What do you think?
 

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Ok, thanks, @DBMandrake , for your detailed explanation. It does make a lot of sense, indeed. I guess that, sooner or later, I will have to talk to Nissan about it, but do you think they can diagnose it without opening the battery pack and physically extracting the corresponding module? I doubt it, which is why I do not think they would be eager to help.
Eagerness has nothing to do with it ? If there is a fault with a battery module and it is under warranty they need to fix it, end of.

In your situation I would not be leaving it until the warranty runs out that's for sure.
If the 68th cell is bleeding as you suggest, then if I charge from turtle to 100% very slowly (the slower, the more noticeable effect I would expect), the cell will hardly get any charge at all (because whatever gets in will also get out), while all of the other cells will eventually reach 100%.
Bleeder resistors only bleed a couple of watts at most, this is a very small percentage of even a granny charger's output. So it's not possible to slow the charging rate to near the bleeding rate.
You said that, towards the end of the charge, all “normal” cells are forced to run their bleeders, but I do not think that is the case, because LeafSpy shows everything in blue until charging stops completely.
If there is a small imbalance a BMS will wait until the cells are above about 80% before doing any bleeding, however it looks like the discrepancy is large enough that the BMS is trying to bleed the higher cells from a very low charge. That in itself shows there is a problem.
Now, of course I cannot charge the battery slowly enough for the gain to be equal to the loss due to bleeding. Still, the slower the charge, the bigger gap (diff in mV) I would expect at 100%. So instead of using CHAdeMO, perhaps I should trickle charge my Leaf using the granny cable for ~ 15+ hours; then if your theory is right, the diff will grow above 60 mV soon.
So how do you normally charge ? Chademo ? Have you not done any recent Level 2 charges ?
Btw, today I have made another 75-mile roundtrip, quick charged once from about 50% to 100%, and the diff seemed to decrease a bit (from 50 mV back to 40 mV) rather than increase as a result. Together with your post, that is what leads me to the above reasoning. What do you think?
In a DC rapid charge the bleed would become fairly insignificant. In fact some cars don't attempt cell balancing at all during a rapid charge precisely because the bleeders are so small compared to the rapid charge rate that they would have negligible effect, and you don't want to be adding an extra hour to the charge time after the main charging is finished just to balance during the last few percent.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Based on your reply, I gave up on my slow charging idea, but I have tried to discharge the battery to turtle. At first, nothing new was happening, in fact, the diff actually seemed to decrease (to ~ 30 mV) for a while. However, as I passed LBW / VLBW and got close to turtle, the diff increased above 100 mV, at which point LeafSpy started showing the CVLI warning. Then as I went on discharging, 100 mV became 200, 300, 400 and finally 485 mV when turtle appeared.

So I connected my wallbox (which is preset to 19 amps) and started charging immediately, as instructed by the Leaf. Interestingly, though the weak cell caught up very quickly (the diff decreased back to ~ 50 mV early in the process), the BMS does not seem to be able to balance it any further, despite the fact that, this time, all cells except the weak one appear in red (shunted, bleeding) even when charging. So the BMS may be smart, it might have learned a lesson, yet apparently there is nothing it can do to fix the balancing issue. That again confirms your theory about the shorted transistor. Perhaps the cell became weak as a result of that fault. (I remember I had well balanced cells when my car was less than a year old.)

The only good news is that at least the voltage sensor is probably ok, am I right?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
What if ... one of the two cells in a cell pair disconnects from the parallel unit, resulting in an internal open-circuit condition, e.g. because of excessive vibrations?

According to Bruen, Thomas and Marco, James (2016) Modelling and experimental evaluation of parallel connected lithium ion cells for an electric vehicle battery system, Journal of Power Sources, 310, pp. 91-101 (Redirecting), “there is an instantaneous drop in terminal voltage”, e.g. 55 mV, “and the parallel unit reaches the lower cut-off voltage earlier than if there had been no disconnection”.

What do you think, @DBMandrake ? I know it is just a wild guess, but it would explain a sudden imbalance, too. I wish I knew exactly when and how my battery condition developed, of course it could have been a gradual process, but, unfortunately, I only noticed when my range did not seem to match my SOH after 2 years.

Having complained directly to Nissan, they are finally looking into this now. Hopefully I will not have to spend 100+ hours on it myself, like one unhappy Leaf owner did and summarized at Thinking about a Leaf? Read this first - My Nissan Leaf Forum

The dealer who diagnosed my issue confirmed the voltages from LeafSpy, where the CVLI test would clearly fail. However, they did not seem to have heard about this particular test, and they did not have time to discuss the service manual. They kept my Leaf for 3 days, and as a side effect they managed to break front parking sensors by replacing my thin license plate frames with thicker frames of their own. I had to go back to the dealer who had installed the sensors, only to have those changes reverted, for a fee. Ironically, if I had not mentioned any problem with the sensors, they might have replaced the frames automatically, free of charge, like they all often do these days ...
 

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What if ... one of the two cells in a cell pair disconnects from the parallel unit, resulting in an internal open-circuit condition, e.g. because of excessive vibrations?

According to Bruen, Thomas and Marco, James (2016) Modelling and experimental evaluation of parallel connected lithium ion cells for an electric vehicle battery system, Journal of Power Sources, 310, pp. 91-101 (Redirecting), “there is an instantaneous drop in terminal voltage”, e.g. 55 mV, “and the parallel unit reaches the lower cut-off voltage earlier than if there had been no disconnection”.

What do you think, @DBMandrake ? I know it is just a wild guess, but it would explain a sudden imbalance, too. I wish I knew exactly when and how my battery condition developed, of course it could have been a gradual process, but, unfortunately, I only noticed when my range did not seem to match my SOH after 2 years.
I wasn't aware that Leaf cells were connected in parallel pairs like they are in the Zoe, but I'm not sure it explains your issue, for a couple of reasons.

1) This would halve the usable Ah capacity of that cell pair, which would in turn half the usable capacity of the pack as a whole, because the weakest link in the series chain sets the total usable capacity. So your range and SoH would immediately plummet to half of what it should be. Has it dropped to half of what it should be ?

2) Yes, one cell going open circuit in a pair would cause a significant drop in voltage relative to other cells, especially as the pack is discharged, but not at 100% charge while the car is parked.

As the pack discharged the remaining cell in the bad pair would discharge twice as quickly as the other cells and drop in voltage much more rapidly. However the reverse is also true - it would charge twice as quickly as the other pairs of cells elsewhere in the series string because it would be charged at twice the current (per cell) than any other cell.

So it would discharge much quicker but also charge much quicker so in theory during charging it would catch up and reach 100% at the same time as other cells - which is not what you see at all.

So I think the most likely cause is still a faulty balancing circuit for that cell pair that is always bleeding, or one of the two cells has an internal fault that is causing high self-discharge but otherwise has normal capacity - that is also theoretically possible. As long as the self discharge rate was greater than the discharge rate of the balancing bleeders for other cells it would then not be able to get back into balance.

Having complained directly to Nissan, they are finally looking into this now. Hopefully I will not have to spend 100+ hours on it myself, like one unhappy Leaf owner did and summarized at Thinking about a Leaf? Read this first - My Nissan Leaf Forum

The dealer who diagnosed my issue confirmed the voltages from LeafSpy, where the CVLI test would clearly fail. However, they did not seem to have heard about this particular test, and they did not have time to discuss the service manual. They kept my Leaf for 3 days, and as a side effect they managed to break front parking sensors by replacing my thin license plate frames with thicker frames of their own. I had to go back to the dealer who had installed the sensors, only to have those changes reverted, for a fee. Ironically, if I had not mentioned any problem with the sensors, they might have replaced the frames automatically, free of charge, like they all often do these days ...
Hopefully they get this problem sorted out for you. If they do cover it under warranty I suspect they'd just replace the entire pack (so Nissan HQ can diagnose the problem at the factory) and you will never find out exactly what the fault was.
 

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I wasn't aware that Leaf cells were connected in parallel pairs like they are in the Zoe, but I'm not sure it explains your issue, for a couple of reasons.

1) This would halve the usable Ah capacity of that cell pair, which would in turn half the usable capacity of the pack as a whole, because the weakest link in the series chain sets the total usable capacity. So your range and SoH would immediately plummet to half of what it should be. Has it dropped to half of what it should be ?

2) Yes, one cell going open circuit in a pair would cause a significant drop in voltage relative to other cells, especially as the pack is discharged, but not at 100% charge while the car is parked.

As the pack discharged the remaining cell in the bad pair would discharge twice as quickly as the other cells and drop in voltage much more rapidly. However the reverse is also true - it would charge twice as quickly as the other pairs of cells elsewhere in the series string because it would be charged at twice the current (per cell) than any other cell.

So it would discharge much quicker but also charge much quicker so in theory during charging it would catch up and reach 100% at the same time as other cells - which is not what you see at all.

So I think the most likely cause is still a faulty balancing circuit for that cell pair that is always bleeding, or one of the two cells has an internal fault that is causing high self-discharge but otherwise has normal capacity - that is also theoretically possible. As long as the self discharge rate was greater than the discharge rate of the balancing bleeders for other cells it would then not be able to get back into balance.


Hopefully they get this problem sorted out for you. If they do cover it under warranty I suspect they'd just replace the entire pack (so Nissan HQ can diagnose the problem at the factory) and you will never find out exactly what the fault was.
I believe this can be done at some centres and there are something like 10< trained people at UK dealership level that can split packs and test them. I believe one in newcastle or sunderland if memory serves and 2 in london area, 1 in the mid-north iirc
 

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The shunts in the Leaf are very weak at about 10mA and are designed to cope with only small amounts of imbalance. If the delta of 40-60mV holds over most of the range and only gets large at low voltages it suggests to me the capacity is ok, just not balanced.

I have been told low cells can be corrected by leaving the car turned on for extended periods (days) and going through multiple charge cycles and the process can take a week or two. Most people don’t have the time and the solution here in New Zealand (where not covered by warranties for the 30kWh cars) has been to manually balance the cell by opening the pack or replacing the module if there is any suggestion it might lack capacity.

One owner who tried to get a module repair of a low cell on a car that was under Nissan warranty has been fobbed off with them saying not bad enough. If the CVLI test is reporting a weak cell it should be worth at least asking. I hope you get some remedy.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Hopefully they get this problem sorted out for you. If they do cover it under warranty I suspect they'd just replace the entire pack (so Nissan HQ can diagnose the problem at the factory) and you will never find out exactly what the fault was.
Well, @DBMandrake , you were right about one thing: we will never find out exactly what is wrong with my cell pair #68, but not because of any replacement, that is not going to happen. Nissan will not replace anything at all. They will not replace my battery pack, and they will not even replace a single cell/module.

I pointed Nissan to this very thread on our forum, so they must have seen my screenshots and read all of the above, yet their final decision is to do nothing. Today I have just received their official reply to my email, where I described my range issues, concerns, etc. and asked some questions. In their reply, they thanked me for choosing Nissan - twice, both at the beginning and at the end, and in the middle they just said there was nothing wrong with my Leaf.

I got no answers to my technical questions, but I promised I would respect whatever decision they make, so I will. There is not much else I can do, anyway. The dealers only do what Nissan tell them to do, so they cannot help. I made it clear I was ready to pay for the spare battery module (which costs 408,- euro, according to one dealer) as well as labor costs, if necessary, but one local dealer, who is now certified to replace individual modules, said they could not estimate their effort / expenses, and another certified dealer is remote, so it is difficult to chase them when they do not reply to my emails and do not pick up the phone. Clearly, they are not interested in such a job order, or perhaps they are afraid of something, now that Nissan have denied my warranty claim.

One last thing I can try is to leave the car turned on for a day, or a couple of days in a row, as @DonaldNZ suggests. That might help a bit at least, assuming that all those shunts work as expected. I have actually got the same idea myself, so it is good to know there is some hope - thanks, @DonaldNZ .

Thank you all for your support. Your comments have been very useful because they make me think out of the box and do more research, instead of mourning about my doomed Leaf.

At this point, most people in my shoes would probably consider selling the car before it is too late, but for me, that is not an option. Firstly, I spent my life savings on my Leaf 30 kWh, so I know for sure I will never ever be able to upgrade, because of depreciation.

Besides, in 2016 I bought my Leaf out of curiosity above all. I knew it was risky, for many reasons, from many points of view, so my expectations regarding my daily driving needs were not very specific. I also own an older petrol car, so I thought that, in the worst case, I would have a toy to play with. If it had happened to meet my needs as a usable car, it would have been a bonus, meaning a pleasant surprise. Now I may only have an expensive toy, but it has been such an eye-opener that I would be a fool to regret anything.

In other words, curiosity killed the cat, but satisfaction brought it back, ... and they lived happily ever after.

From what I have seen on the web, there are a lot of Leaf owners who have the same or similar issue with a single cell, or just a few cells, of their battery. Those who do not regularly use LeafSpy may not be aware of the root cause of their range issues, and even those who do complain may well just be the tip of the iceberg in the global statistics. On the other hand, not everyone posts enough details or looks for the common pattern; many people give up early, or never publish their findings once they solve their respective problems. Hopefully our thread here helps the community in the same way as the available shared experience helped me learn about the general problem.

Should anyone else find anything that works for them, please let me know. If, in the future, I somehow manage to improve the balance of my battery pack, I will post the details here, too.
 

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Ok, @DBMandrake , I agree, I will talk to Nissan next week, let us see what they say. Now I also have some news: I do have a weak cell after all, see my new screenshot below.

View attachment 104608
A weak cell is one that will match the others at high SOC but very low at low SOC. In this case I don't think we can tell if the cell itself has yet lost capacity/unable to deliver full current. Yes, it is a bigger cell difference but I don't know what the discharge curve looks like.

What we can see is that it is badly out of balance and this will seriously damage your range. That cell will define how far you can go.

Monitor it over time, leave it plugged in when you don't need the car, and see if the imbalance gets worse. On the one hand, Nissan have a point that it should self balance. As mentioned above, maybe a balancing component has played silly-b*ggrs, on the other, maybe it was momentary. Time will tell. Good luck and I hope the imbalance reduces and there is no problem any time soon.
 

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Looking at a discharge curve for a 30kWh pack, the max is around 395V then roughly linear down to VLBW (dashes on GOM) about 330V, at the “knee” of the curve, so at the cell level 4.11V down to 3.44V. Say a 50mV effective reduction (low cell drops early) if it roughly holds this difference down to VLBW before droppng rapidly it is around 8% loss of range. When we consider the Nissan warranty is loss of 4 bars for about 60-65% of original capacity it could be argued far less than that.

The problem is you have been given accelerated loss of capacity closer to new and unfortunately you are not alone with Nissan refusing to address a cell pair with imbalance. As mentioned above, monitor and give it a chance to balance. I think this needs the car left turned on - plugged in once it finishes the short balance phase may not work. It was a car dealer here who gets imports from the UK (and seen these before) who suggested these may balance but I’m afraid no guarantee it would work. Good on you for giving the Leaf a go and hopefully it will still meet your needs and maybe come right.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
So as a last resort, I also tried to leave the car turned on for 2 days (13 + 12 hours), and I am sorry to report that it did not have any effect, e.g. during the 2nd day, the diff only changed from 47 to 49 mV (while SOC dropped about 9% each day).

I would almost be inclined to believe something is wrong with the shunt (called a bypass switch in the service manual), e.g. the shorted transistor as @DBMandrake suggested more than a month ago, except that now I think that would probably trigger P3062, which is not happening.

Interestingly, right now an almost identical case (24 kWh, not 30 kWh) is being discussed at Do I have dead cell/module? - My Nissan Leaf Forum , so I am hoping to learn something from there, too.
 

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Followed a link found later in that thread:

30kWh Leaf Cell Imbalance and Complete Cell Failure - EVs Enhanced

Interesting that it specifically mentions the 30kWh Leaf as being affected, and that as far as they understand it is caused by a cell with high self discharge, but where the usable capacity is still normal.

Also interesting that they say the balancing resistors can only dissipate 39mW each for a pair of cells in parallel - that is tiny compared to the battery capacity, so it would only take a relatively small abnormal self discharge rate of a cell for it to get out of balance and be outside the ability of the cell balancing system to get it back into balance.
 

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Discussion Starter #20 (Edited)
Yes, I agree, btw the link you mention was my starting point at the very top of this thread:

Hello,

I’m wondering about what LeafSpy shows me:

. . . . . . . . .

What do you think, could it be the thing described at
30kWh Leaf Cell Imbalance and Complete Cell Failure - EVs Enhanced

Has anyone ever noticed something similar?
If you overlooked and missed that, then perhaps so did Nissan (?)

Anyway, self-discharge is the next thing I plan to either confirm or rule out.

In the first post at Balancing Pack With One Low Cell Pair - My Nissan Leaf Forum , ‘dwl’ says “there seems to be an issue if the cars are left unused, especially cold”.

I have not recently been using the car at all; in fact, I have not used it since Saturday (when I left it turned on for the whole day), so soon I should be able to measure the voltage again and hopefully it will make sense to compare the results to those from last week. It is getting colder these days, so if there is a significant self-discharge on my cell pair #68, it should make a difference. I will report what I find as soon as I get the numbers.

As the imbalance does not seem to grow when discharging, then either there is this self-discharge, or it grows (cell #68 lags behind) when charging, or both. Let us see ...

Regarding the manual balancing process recommended by both evsenhanced.com (“repairing and manually re-balancing these 30kWh packs has become one of the few reasons that we still have to open a Leaf battery pack these days”) and ‘dwl’ from mynissanleaf.com, there seems to be some disagreement between them: ‘dwl’ says, “for those that have been manually balanced they seem to retain the balance over time”. However, according to evsenhanced.com, it “will hide the problem for a while, but the issue will re-develop over time on the same cell(s). Furthermore, the failing cell is only likely to get worse over time ...”.

I know it is a bit of a moot point when Nissan is not going to let me open my battery pack, but still I have been thinking about whether or not manual balancing could help. On one hand, I would say that it is hardly worth the effort if the imbalance has developed because of a manufacturing defect (e.g., lower capacity and/or higher internal resistance of the outlier cell), but on the other hand, who knows, perhaps the parameters of the “good” cells also change as the pack grows older, so the manual balancing might not necessarily return the system to its original unstable state. In fact, its current state does not have to be unstable, either. Sure, it is quite bad for a 2-year old, 30 kWh Leaf to only have a range of a 24 kWh one, but if that is some kind of an equilibrium, so be it. All is well that ends well, what do you think?
 
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