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Perpetual meaning that we can fill up our batteries just as fuel can but with one absolute fact that cannot be allowed: Polluting! I have seen some very cynical comments and the Tesla and other companies experimentation all doomed to fail as they used the wrong test. Why? The infrastructure for fuel is not onus on the vehicle manufacturer in most cases the countries government leads the way. It is not up to Nissan, Tesla or BMW... to lead the way it is ESSO, Shell or Fina...How? The true fast charger is not Eco and having cables litter streets or charges in a lamp post is not the way, It needs a charging garage or base where charging/exchange can take place. Gravity is a brilliant free on Earth so batteries must have connectors and securing that are low or can be held in place with the heavier battery above. For a car look at the back seat the approximate dimensions allow for a substantial battery with engineering to ensure in the case of a sudden stop makes it travels down into the road so safety is ensured. using my Nissan Micra I would get about 100v 200Ah battery under the seat this could be broken into 2 about 100Kg or less each with a universal remover tool the batteries can be removed and charged away from the vehicle in Fuel pump/exchange electric racks. You cannot own the battery (Esso... do or governments...) you hire it and have to do so as part of the legal requirement in purchasing the EV and as stated in the DVLA form paid for monthly? (Allows resale). All cars this size must have standard battery/s (ECU/Controllers can give diversity) Fittings and securing universal that meet standards for safety and control. These can be exchanged at battery stations 24/7 as now for petrol, you pay for the difference of your exchange battery and the freshly charged battery/s on your card and drive off once you have transferred batteries or use standard garage EV charges. This proposal is only set at small cars approx 100v maybe 72v or 90v but must be set in legislation as does size dimensions and Ah universal. There is some need for a device to remove batteries and replace from charging racks. GPS and ID features in batteries to prevent theft damage. You cannot for instance put in a bad battery and take a good one out without scrutiny. The amount of batteries per vehicle would need to be greater and need good survey for logistics and you can still home charge reducing low mileage usage costs (better than Fuel today) . Battery rent must cover cost plus admin/disposal/logistics and be applied to each EV individually and per unit. If you want your own battery fine but you pay rent as per DVLA registration for Batteries with reduction.

How can I be sure this is correct? I am live with 72v 45Ah battery/s doing these tests as we speak with my own EV my fuel station is a storage rack. I take out and exchange my batteries that take about 1m 30s to change, I have 3 batteries when all 3 depleted I need one substantial stop to charge all 3. Then continue and complete 200 mile in two sessions not the same as petrol yet but cost is about £1.50 for 3 batteries top up. To do this 200 mile trip in one go I could take six batteries and reach my destination in less time than petrol at less cost for fuel but the costs of the batteries would make me Elon Musk. My Micra is 800cc and is very eco especially as I use it at eco speeds 55 MPH max My EV cost 3 times more for the batteries than the machine yet over time it can still be more cost effective than the Petrol. The very nature of economics if we all have EV in 2050 is not to expect it to be cheaper than Fossil Fuel today with probably high taxation but what it needs to do is be perpetual and above all ECO.
 

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Battery swapping has been tried a couple of times but failed. I don’t think it’s going to happen.
 
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I am live with 72v 45Ah battery
About 3kWh. That's about 12-15 miles range. I doubt anybody buying an EV would accept that. Most PHEVs can do better than that.

Battery swap has been discussed extensively in this forum and has had limited trials in the real world ... It's just a non-starter in reality. Battery and rapid charging technologies have left it dead in the water.
 

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Battery swap has been discussed extensively in this forum and has had limited trials in the real world ... It's just a non-starter in reality. Battery and rapid charging technologies have left it dead in the water.
..except possibly in China where NIO are betting heavily on it with 155 stations and 1 million claimed swaps. Can't see it working out well anywhere else though.
 

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Perpetual meaning that we can fill up our batteries just as fuel can but with one absolute fact that cannot be allowed: Polluting! I have seen some very cynical comments and the Tesla and other companies experimentation all doomed to fail as they used the wrong test. Why? The infrastructure for fuel is not onus on the vehicle manufacturer in most cases the countries government leads the way. It is not up to Nissan, Tesla or BMW... to lead the way it is ESSO, Shell or Fina...How? The true fast charger is not Eco and having cables litter streets or charges in a lamp post is not the way, It needs a charging garage or base where charging/exchange can take place. Gravity is a brilliant free on Earth so batteries must have connectors and securing that are low or can be held in place with the heavier battery above. For a car look at the back seat the approximate dimensions allow for a substantial battery with engineering to ensure in the case of a sudden stop makes it travels down into the road so safety is ensured. using my Nissan Micra I would get about 100v 200Ah battery under the seat this could be broken into 2 about 100Kg or less each with a universal remover tool the batteries can be removed and charged away from the vehicle in Fuel pump/exchange electric racks. You cannot own the battery (Esso... do or governments...) you hire it and have to do so as part of the legal requirement in purchasing the EV and as stated in the DVLA form paid for monthly? (Allows resale). All cars this size must have standard battery/s (ECU/Controllers can give diversity) Fittings and securing universal that meet standards for safety and control. These can be exchanged at battery stations 24/7 as now for petrol, you pay for the difference of your exchange battery and the freshly charged battery/s on your card and drive off once you have transferred batteries or use standard garage EV charges. This proposal is only set at small cars approx 100v maybe 72v or 90v but must be set in legislation as does size dimensions and Ah universal. There is some need for a device to remove batteries and replace from charging racks. GPS and ID features in batteries to prevent theft damage. You cannot for instance put in a bad battery and take a good one out without scrutiny. The amount of batteries per vehicle would need to be greater and need good survey for logistics and you can still home charge reducing low mileage usage costs (better than Fuel today) . Battery rent must cover cost plus admin/disposal/logistics and be applied to each EV individually and per unit. If you want your own battery fine but you pay rent as per DVLA registration for Batteries with reduction.

How can I be sure this is correct? I am live with 72v 45Ah battery/s doing these tests as we speak with my own EV my fuel station is a storage rack. I take out and exchange my batteries that take about 1m 30s to change, I have 3 batteries when all 3 depleted I need one substantial stop to charge all 3. Then continue and complete 200 mile in two sessions not the same as petrol yet but cost is about £1.50 for 3 batteries top up. To do this 200 mile trip in one go I could take six batteries and reach my destination in less time than petrol at less cost for fuel but the costs of the batteries would make me Elon Musk. My Micra is 800cc and is very eco especially as I use it at eco speeds 55 MPH max My EV cost 3 times more for the batteries than the machine yet over time it can still be more cost effective than the Petrol. The very nature of economics if we all have EV in 2050 is not to expect it to be cheaper than Fossil Fuel today with probably high taxation but what it needs to do is be perpetual and above all ECO.
Nope, we want battery ownership, the market has spoken. The world is just going to have to chill out and long distance travel take that few hours longer, require more overnight stops that we are used to with ICE cars.

The lead foot driver, who is not wealthy, is going to have to kerb a lifetime of poor fuel economy, lack of paitence, and excessive speed. They wont have a choice, unless they want to spend twice as long at charging stations than Mr Joe Average / Joe Slow. I relish this with a evil twinkle in my Eye. White Van Man "hobbbled" for good, unless he wants to get back to base, back home at 8pm every day.
 

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The troubles with the idea are that
All of a sudden every manufacturer would have to have exactly the same design, which will never happen.....
We would require double the number of batteries which are the thing holding EV's back....
No one would bother looking after the battery, ie fully charging them all the time etc so batteries would fail sooner....
The costs would be astronomic.....

This has been tried and failed, why would anyone thing its going to happen?
 

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The troubles with the idea are that
All of a sudden every manufacturer would have to have exactly the same design, which will never happen.....
We would require double the number of batteries which are the thing holding EV's back....
No one would bother looking after the battery, ie fully charging them all the time etc so batteries would fail sooner....
The costs would be astronomic.....

This has been tried and failed, why would anyone thing its going to happen?
(y)
Just wanted to add on your second point: it sort of works with a small-ish number of EVs, let's say 10k EVs = 20k batteries. Now imagine we have 10Million EVs... now that's 20 Million batteries, that need to be stored, cared for and kept in tip-top shape on a what 5min notice...
 

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(y)
Just wanted to add on your second point: it sort of works with a small-ish number of EVs, let's say 10k EVs = 20k batteries. Now imagine we have 10Million EVs... now that's 20 Million batteries, that need to be stored, cared for and kept in tip-top shape on a what 5min notice...
Realistically you’d store less and expect most people to charge at home most of the time. I’d probably only use a swap 3-4 times a year, so in theory 4 spare batteries can support ~365 cars. That’s all fine and dandy until the August bank holiday or even worse Christmas, when not only are we all going a long way to visit grandma but also economy sucks because of the weather. A station is suddenly going to have to deal 100x its normal daily volume, and we’ll be in massive a queue waiting for............. the next available battery (which got swapped out an hour ago) to finish charging! And once that queue has more than ~5 people in it? It’s quicker to just plug in.
 
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Realistically you’d store less and expect most people to charge at home most of the time. I’d probably only use a swap 3-4 times a year, so in theory 4 spare batteries can support ~365 cars. That’s all fine and dandy until the August bank holiday or even worse Christmas, when not only are we all going a long way to visit grandma but also economy sucks because of the weather. A station is suddenly going to have to deal 100x its normal daily volume, and we’ll be in massive a queue waiting for............. the next available battery (which got swapped out an hour ago) to finish charging! And once that queue has more than ~5 people in it? It’s quicker to just plug in.
All those batteries would also need to be stored at 100% 24/7 which we all know is a bad idea. So now we have hundreds of batteries stored at 100% all the time slowly destroying themselves and you still wouldn’t have enough for capacity as you say August Bank Holiday.
 

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Battery swap is a solution to a problem that existed 5 years ago, that partially exists today and that will be completely solved in 10 years from now. The sheer amount of money that is spent on battery research and the lab results we see now allow us to predict that in 10 years from now we will have batteries with a triple or quadruple density of what we see today, that require no TMS and can be charged to 100% in 10 or 15 minutes.
 

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I am live with 72v 45Ah battery/s doing these tests as we speak with my own EV my fuel station is a storage rack.
Is this in your TC Max? Because a 3kWh battery won't move a car very far.
I take out and exchange my batteries that take about 1m 30s to change
Remember that a universal solution needs to be universally acceptable. With my back problems, I can just about bend low enough to plug my car in to charge.
 

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72 volts isn't really enough, even a modest 50 kW motor could pull 700 amps from a 3 kWh battery. PUTTING the 3 batteries in series would reduce the current but then you would have to swap them all at the same time & the battery swap station would have to keep them as a set.
 

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..except possibly in China where NIO are betting heavily on it with 155 stations and 1 million claimed swaps. Can't see it working out well anywhere else though.
It could certainly work in specific limited situations. But not across multiple manufacturers and countries in a free market - it's too constraining.
It will be interesting to see how NIO gets on in the longer term.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Battery swapping has been tried a couple of times but failed. I don’t think it’s going to happen.
I agree but in 2030 in the uk no new fossil fuel cars will be offered or at least I hope. It is only then that a true need will be seen and although all hopes are on charging that’s too many eggs and by 2050 it should be even in a small way feasible
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
72 volts isn't really enough, even a modest 50 kW motor could pull 700 amps from a 3 kWh battery. PUTTING the 3 batteries in series would reduce the current but then you would have to swap them all at the same time & the battery swap station would have to keep them as a set.
72v is for my motor bike I get 33 miles at 65 mph on 45Ah battery 50 kW motors are far to big I’m talking about a small car at 80 mph max this is more than capable at 10-15 kW on 2 wheels using 100v and transference controllers that can bring that sort of power. I’m not replacing big cars or even petrol cars at this stage I’m talking small lighter printable cars. big can remain as standard chargeable non eco machines.
 

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72v is for my motor bike
I’m talking small lighter printable cars
That's a very different market. You're looking at things like the Twizy, which is just not a popular type of vehicle (global sales about 3,000 a year). The problem you then have is there just aren't enough of them around to make battery swap stations viable, even if their owners were daft enough to use them for long distance journeys.

And also
but must be set in legislation
Not a chance. You'd need a critical mass, like the whole EU, before that world happen.
 

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Can't see it working out well anywhere else though.
It's like musical chairs. No-one wants to be the one left with the duff battery when the music stops. In principle a good idea, but rubbish in practice.
 
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Strikes me that the NIO operation is akin to Tesla's Supercharger network. It's obviously a good idea but other car makers are very, very reluctant to join in. The Ionity (?) charging cooperation thing is probably as close as we'll get to makers working together outside bespoke arrangements.
 

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A 999cc Micra weighs just over a tonne and the engine generates 100 ps at 5000 rpm. It has a 0 to 60 mph time of 10 9 seconds. 100ps is roughly 75 kW. I agree that you probably only use 10 tp 15 kW at a steady 80 mph, but you have to accelerate up that speed and you use more power going up hill. Whilst you could strip weight out of the car, but you still need sufficient strength and safety equipment to pass safety tests. All car manufacturers minimise the weight of their cars as much as they can, all of those materials are expensive. Good luck making a lightweight car that's safe for a reasonable price, with 9 kWh of batteries. I still think less than 50 kW power would make a gutless car.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
A 999cc Micra weighs just over a tonne and the engine generates 100 ps at 5000 rpm. It has a 0 to 60 mph time of 10 9 seconds. 100ps is roughly 75 kW. I agree that you probably only use 10 tp 15 kW at a steady 80 mph, but you have to accelerate up that speed and you use more power going up hill. Whilst you could strip weight out of the car, but you still need sufficient strength and safety equipment to pass safety tests. All car manufacturers minimise the weight of their cars as much as they can, all of those materials are expensive. Good luck making a lightweight car that's safe for a reasonable price, with 9 kWh of batteries. I still think less than 50 kW power would make a gutless car.
Very good but my micro is 792cc Tecna with turbo. It is more powerful than my old 1000cc model. I personally always had gutless as you say I don’t need and would never buy 50kW, 15 on two of the wheels max.
By the way my motor bikes however though still not be 50kW they will go faster and have greater acceleration. Bu I’m waiting until I get one with removable batteries super soco in the future I hope.
 
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