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I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
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You would hope that any half decent engineer would be well aware of PHEV battery usage patterns and "pad out" top and bottom appropriately so it's never anywhere near true 0% or 100%, and implement the best practices to manage as best as possible a PHEV batt's life. Remember, these batteries are never "supercharged", so nice gentle charging.
You can expect any half decent engineer would. But decent engineers aren't the ones who specify the technicalities of cars. Accountants and project managers do that.

Fortunately, at least the Volt/Ampera was designed reasonably by engineers before anyone with a sharp suit and a calculator figured out what they were actually up to. Regrettably, then the 'trick' was spotted! "Whaaaaatt??? You've been giving customers properly engineered cars that last beyond the warrant period!?!?!? Disgraceful! What will our shareholders think! Next thing you'll be expecting us to make cars that our customers actually want!"
 

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You would hope that any half decent engineer would be well aware of PHEV battery usage patterns and "pad out" top and bottom appropriately so it's never anywhere near true 0% or 100%, and implement the best practices to manage as best as possible a PHEV batt's life. Remember, these batteries are never "supercharged", so nice gentle charging.
There is nothing "gentile" in the PHEV Battery life

It is charged to 100% all the time it is plug in ... (bad design from Mitsubishi)

It has ChadeMo fast charging .. but actually almost nobody use it .. so it is charge normally only at around 2.2kw .. which is conservative for a 12kwh battery pack

Unfortunately this battery see up to 40kw peak regen charging, which is a stress for the battery

And as well, under usage it often requested to deliver close to 60kw .. which is again a big stress for a 12kwh battery

Regen, and discharge is way more extreme then on a normal BEV ... plus no protection on 100% SOC

On top ... the BMU firmware is looking quite bugged

So ... all in all ,... between Mitsubishi , Yuasa and the BMU supplier ... it is looking a hard fight about who can deliver the worst engineering in the EV arena
 

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There is nothing "gentile" in the PHEV Battery life

It is charged to 100% all the time it is plug in ... (bad design from Mitsubishi)

It has ChadeMo fast charging .. but actually almost nobody use it .. so it is charge normally only at around 2.2kw .. which is conservative for a 12kwh battery pack

Unfortunately this battery see up to 40kw peak regen charging, which is a stress for the battery

And as well, under usage it often requested to deliver close to 60kw .. which is again a big stress for a 12kwh battery

Regen, and discharge is way more extreme then on a normal BEV ... plus no protection on 100% SOC

On top ... the BMU firmware is looking quite bugged

So ... all in all ,... between Mitsubishi , Yuasa and the BMU supplier ... it is looking a hard fight about who can deliver the worst engineering in the EV arena
Very nice way to explain the real story!

Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk
 

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I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
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Also to say that 7kWh of cells experience the same stress at 7kW as 40kWh of cells do at 40 kW. There are simply different numbers of cells.
 

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Also to say that 7kWh of cells experience the same stress at 7kW as 40kWh of cells do at 40 kW. There are simply different numbers of cells.
If everything is properly scaled up .. 7kwh battery that get discharged at 7kw, is 100% equivalent to a 40kwh pack with a 40kw load.

Driving a car in EV mode require more or less 250wh per km ... so let say at speed of 90km/h ... this means a average need of 22.5kw

Using a ZOE with 40kwh pack ... this means do discharge the pack in around 2h .. while in a 12kwh PHEV it means to discharge the pack in 30 minutes ... so the PHEV battery is 4 time more stressing then a 40kwh BEV ... and almost 10 more intense then a Tesla 100
 

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On my c-zero I have the same battery cels, only the battery is 14kwh. I cherge on fast charger allmoste every day and degredation is only about 10%. I just dont know, have the outlander, active cooling system trough battery with cooling air.
 

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On my c-zero I have the same battery cels, only the battery is 14kwh. I cherge on fast charger allmoste every day and degredation is only about 10%. I just dont know, have the outlander, active cooling system trough battery with cooling air.
10% of degradation after how many km and years ?

10% is not looking little to me.

In the originals advertising of Outlander PHEV it was stated that battery is expected to last over the full life of the car, and it should never lose more then 20%

So 10% of capacity lost is equal to 50% of battery life gone

Anyhow ... my PHEV, which has been used mainly as hybrid car, and very seldom charged by the previous owner ... it has now lost around 11.5% SOH ... and per the dog, my car now has over 550 full battery cycle / full charge ... so not so many fully charges for a battery that it is now over 5y old ... at the moment the battery SOH is relative is stable and it lose 0.1Ah SOH every 45 days ... so around 2% SOH per year ... at this pace for the car 10th birthday the battery SOH will be round 80% ... it helps that only 2 or 3 days a week I need to fully charge the car since almost 1y, before it was 6 days a week.

Many Outlander PHEV are in worst condition then mine .. but still .. I don't find this good ... a Tesla after 5y is having normally no more then 5% SOH lost

PS: I'm not sure what is worst .. fast charge .. which cause to charge the battery quickly, but charge only up to 80% ... or a full "slow" charge, which cause to charge the battery to 100% and keep at high voltage the battery for many hours ... keeping the battery at full voltage is a well known factor that impact battery life/capacity ... the Outlander has a "ridiculous" 35% (or more) buffer from fully discharge state ... but no "protection" over fully charged state ... I call this "bad design" ... and results are visible to everybody
 

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richi.uk
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It is charged to 100% all the time it is plug in.

battery see up to 40kw peak regen charging, which is a stress for the battery

And as well, under usage it often requested to deliver close to 60kw .. which is again a big stress for a 12kwh battery
So much nope.

The BMS is set up to stop at 4.1V, to prolong the life of the cells, so your notional "100%" ain't never a true 100%. The LEV40s are based on the LEV50N design, but the specs are downrated and the electrode composition is improved to cope with the higher currents involved with accelerating and regen-braking a two-tonne vehicle.

As the owner of a 150,000 km example, which reports 98.9% SoH after 1,900 complete charge cycles, I realize I'm something of an outlier, but the typical health of other cars my age/mileage is ~85%, which exceeds my expectations for a pack design that doesn't have liquid thermal management (only forced air).

BTW, warranty terms are typically 70% SoH but vary by territory and/or MY.

The BMS is far from sophisticated, and there seems to be a systemic problem in how the MY2019 cars are being set up at the factory, but the main problem seems to be ignorant dealers, rather than buggy software.
 

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I just joined the forum yesterday but have been reading for a while. I have a Feb 2017 Outlander PHEV which I bought as a used dealer car last week. It has 31,000 KM on the clock. I have just gotten EvBatMon up and running as I purchased an OBDLink MX+ but I have an iPhone so had to buy another adapter (if anyone is after an MX+ let me know). I now have the app running and it shows battery capacity of 32.6ah. After a few runs in the car, the maximum that I can get on the guesso is 40km with mist full charges giving me 38km. When I got 40km on the guesso it dropped by 3km within the first 5 mins (800 metros down the road). I love the car but I am already disappointed with the battery state. I will upload EVBatmon screens later today.
Has anyone been able to upload their batter data to EVBatmon's website to chart history?
 

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Here are my first scans. Interestingly a few cells are stuffed. Cell 1 is only 8.447V and cells 45,46,47, and 70 are only 41.215V. Interestingly, the battery was fully charged earlier today and has been sitting for a number of hours and the SOC has dropped to 98.5%.
 

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Tested again this morning. Car has been in the driveway overnight. Wondering how the cell graph is compiled and what calculations are done as the voltage differences between yesterday and today are reasonable (with the exception of the blue cells which are the same as yesterday). I am no battery or electricity expert but I would have expected to see a drop in the Min and Max voltage measurements on the front screen if the cell graph shows reasonable difference.
 

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Here are my first scans. Interestingly a few cells are stuffed. Cell 1 is only 8.447V and cells 45,46,47, and 70 are only 41.215V. Interestingly, the battery was fully charged earlier today and has been sitting for a number of hours and the SOC has dropped to 98.5%.
The voltage in a battery cell is between 4.1v to 3.5v ... 41.2v and 8.4v .. are wrong data from the EvBatMon

The screen with the SOC is looking correct, there it is stated that max voltage is 4.09v and as well 4.09v is the lowest voltage, and this it is correct ... the charging process enforce that max and min voltage cell should be below 0.005v

SOC drop, after charge, it is normal ...

The battery charging process end when voltage reach 4.1v, but once the charging process is finish, after some rest it is normal that the voltage drop down a bit. The SOC after some rest time, it is calculated based on the battery voltage, and SOC is 100% only if the voltage in the average cell is 4.10v (something that it is not possible after some rest time)

SOC immediately after charging is completed could be 100% but as well it could be more (we have seen up to 105% or less) ... based on the strange maths used by the BMU
 

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So much nope.

The BMS is set up to stop at 4.1V, to prolong the life of the cells, so your notional "100%" ain't never a true 100%. The LEV40s are based on the LEV50N design, but the specs are downrated and the electrode composition is improved to cope with the higher currents involved with accelerating and regen-braking a two-tonne vehicle.

As the owner of a 150,000 km example, which reports 98.9% SoH after 1,900 complete charge cycles, I realize I'm something of an outlier, but the typical health of other cars my age/mileage is ~85%, which exceeds my expectations for a pack design that doesn't have liquid thermal management (only forced air).

BTW, warranty terms are typically 70% SoH but vary by territory and/or MY.

The BMS is far from sophisticated, and there seems to be a systemic problem in how the MY2019 cars are being set up at the factory, but the main problem seems to be ignorant dealers, rather than buggy software.
"So much nope" ?

4.1v is the max voltage designed for this battery, see below the specs for the Yuasa LEV50N
The operating voltage is between 2.75v and 4.1v

That means Mitsubishi decided to use the high voltage of this operating range .. which is a questionable decision.

Air cooling or water cooling ... I don't think it make any difference .. as long as the battery temperature is kept below 35c, does not matter if this is achieved using air or liquid

In Australia Mitsubishi made a public FAQ on their web site, stating that the PHEV battery is not a "maintenance item", and they justify/state that battery should be able to keep above 80% of SOH for the entire car life

Warranty is a different story, and is different country by country ... they even don't state properly what is the initial battery capacity .. since can be 38Ah or 40Ah before they introduced the new bigger battery which is now 44Ah

PS: Every battery can be over charged, Lithium Polymer battery can be normally charge up to 4.2v , but they will not explode if charged up to 4.25v, and they will deliver more power ... so more recent Lithium battery get charged up to 4.35v ... anyhow ... the Lithium battery in our PHEV is designed to be charged up to 4.1v ... so .. stating that there is a safety buffer between 4.1v and 4.2v is 100% incorrect ... even if some YouTube guy from Australia like to make disinformation on this subject.

PS: in case you can't see the pict below follow this link : GS Yuasa's improved cells: LEV50 vs LEV50N - PushEVs

 

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richi.uk
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Ahem, yes, I'm well aware how Yuasa's specs are written. 4.1V is the maximum to achieve the rated cycle life. It's not "100%" in the sense of conventional Li-ion chemistry—more like 90%. In other words, don't confuse the LEV/LIM series with LiFePO4, etc.

Yes, of course, you can effectively cool a pack with conditioned air, but it's harder to engineer it to cool evenly, and less efficient than liquid (because of their respective specific heat capacities). In other words, what I'm saying is that Mitsubishi and/or Yuasa designed the pack well (which is more than can be said for the BMS).

I have no connection with Andi's clickbait. I disagree with a number of things he says, as anyone who follows our good-natured banter on Facebook will know. He has done many good things for the community, but there are other aspects that I'd approach differently.
 

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I think it is wrong to assume that every Li-Ion battery could be charged up to 4.2v

LiFePO4 is a totally different chemistry, which a nominal voltage of only 3.3v

Li-Ion based on the single sub-variant, can have 3.6v nominal, but as well 3.7v and even more 3.75 or 3.8 like the Yuasa.

Most of Li-Ion battery have 3.6v nominal voltage and 4.1v max charging voltage

The fact that in the specs there is only mention to charge up to 4.1v, for me it is a clear sign that these Outlander PHEV battery should be never charge above 4.1v

So ... the BMS in my view is a bit wrong since does not keep any upper buffer, while it keep a huge buffer on lo voltage, since the car / BMS is designed never go below 3.85v in normal condition (speaking of rest voltage after usage down to the 30% which is the BMS target)

PS: My PHEV in the meanwhile after a steady slow decline of 0.1Ah every 45 days ... it made a 0.5Ah decline few days after a 0.1Ah ... an now with only 33Ah of SOH left ..more or less my PHEV is together with many other PHEV which have lost well over 10% in capacity in few years
 

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Hi Everyone,
New to the forum. Have a 2014 Outlander PHEV Aspire in Central Coast NSW Australia. It has done 66000 kms and never has been fast charged (always charged from standard home outlet over night) and very well looked after and always properly serviced. Always driven very conservatively to obtain max EV range, used regenerative braking as much as possible. Out of 66000 kms approximately 3/4 of it is pure EV remaining is mostly parallel hybrid and some serial hybrid driving. Throughout the years the EV range have been going down slowly and it didn't worry me much but in last 6 months it's gone down to 30 km (no AC usage, brand new properly inflated tyres, even slightly over inflated to reduce the friction losses, very conservative usage in ECO mode). The 5 year warranty is going to expire at the end of June. Contacted the only local Mitsubishi dealer in the area and as usual they didn't even want to know about it. Then I found this thread and some others about Outlander PHEV battery issues where people talk about battery smoothing and BMU replacements. Armed with this info contacted the dealer again. The service person said he never heard such thing, call after call eventually I went all the way up to the General Manager of the dealer and he said he would contact Mitsubishi Motors and get back to me. He got back to me saying that Mitsubishi Motors don't have any specific method of approaching drive battery issues, only thing that they can do is test the drive battery for capacity, which takes 4 hours. If the result deemed to be acceptable then I would have to pay 4 hours of labour and that's the end of it. If the result is deemed to be unacceptable then Mitsubishi Motors will look into proper way of approaching the issue.
I really wonder what the outcome of Zolileo's case was? If he was able to get anything done to his vehicle thru the dealer.
I would really appreciate if anyone can share with me their experiences if they have one.
Other than this battery issue our PHEV has been flawless but this battery issue is really worrying me.
Cheers.
Arnie
 
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