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Awaiting Tesla M3—tired of ancient Nissan software
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Discussion Starter #1
Please consider signing this online petition to let the Irish electricity provider, ESB, know that their proposed fee structure is far from ideal, and please leave a comment next to your signature, if you can. I am not connected to the petition, just one of the later signers:

rethink EV charging costs

In my own opinion, charging a standing fee of €17/month plus €0.30/minute for RC in a place with no other providers or options available is not going to promote EV ownership. I fear that it will discourage occasional use of the charge network, essential to cross-country trips, which, in turn, are necessary to move EVs beyond their still fragile early adopter stage. I am sure that charging should not be free, but this approach, lack of consultation, and mismanagement of the communication is worrying.
 

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Leaf on order and didn't account for running costs, doh!!! :)
To be fair to ESB if they didn't do it no one else would in Ireland, last time I looked there was a couple of thousand EV's. Who in their right mind would invest in infrastructure with that take up. Everyone saw this coming, ESB have a big operation in place and no money coming in.
 

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Awaiting Tesla M3—tired of ancient Nissan software
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Discussion Starter #3
Leaf on order and didn't account for running costs, doh!!! :)
To be fair to ESB if they didn't do it no one else would in Ireland, last time I looked there was a couple of thousand EV's. Who in their right mind would invest in infrastructure with that take up. Everyone saw this coming, ESB have a big operation in place and no money coming in.
I respect that you disagree with my observation and I presume you would be the person who is happy with ESB plans—clearly, they have been designed for you.

But please spare the unnecessary insult of "Leaf on order and didn't account for running costs, doh!!!", unless you would be the kind who has not thought through the costs of running an EV while buying one yourself. Thanks for helping out.
 

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So if you did one 30 minute rapid charge a month it would cost €26!? They might as well switch off all the chargers because nobody is going to pay that price.
 

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I respect that you disagree with my observation and I presume you would be the person who is happy with ESB plans—clearly, they have been designed for you.

But please spare the unnecessary insult of "Leaf on order and didn't account for running costs, doh!!!", unless you would be the kind who has not thought through the costs of running an EV while buying one yourself. Thanks for helping out.
Apologies, I didn't mean it as an insult, I meant it as an observation that would catch anyone out.
ESB plans do not effect me but I know the difficulties and what it costs to run an EV service business. I also know that there is no market in Ireland for EV Charging and we are lucky to have a semi state body absorbing huge operational costs so that a couple of thousand people can have a Charging Infrastructure.
My personal opinion is that I would have an issue paying for the poor quality infrastructure and I think ESB face a major backlash on this point. They need to put quality chargers at the key locations to avoid this.
 

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Awaiting Tesla M3—tired of ancient Nissan software
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Discussion Starter #6
@EVCI_Guy, thanks for your kind apology, which is gladly accepted. I am lucky to not have to worry about those costs that ESB are proposing, and in no way do they affect my feelings about my purchase. I can afford it. My worry is that there are many others, who are not in the position I happen to be in, for whom this will be a reason not to go for an EV.

I am also *sure* that this will be a key perk that would have made a lot of ICE drivers seriously consider EVs: the bragging rights ("I don't pay for fuel") were doing more to spread the EV love in Ireland than any ill-thought through government scheme could—even if those people were really paying 70% of their fuel while charging at home.

Yes, I agree with you that this is a small country and we should be lucky and grateful to ESB for having done what they have in providing us with a reasonable charging network (Chademo at least, CCS not so much). However, I also realise that this country has significant short and long-term commitments towards greening up, cutting our diesel and other fossil fuel dependence, and that means the support the country needs to put in place for EVs is a "cost of doing business". ESB, as a semi-state operation knows that, I am sure, which is why they got us here in the first place. Now is a crunch point, when things could get better, or get stalled. I know we are not rich like Norway is, whose network and EV support are best in the world, but I doubt that ESB need the max EUR 500k/annum they could get from the proposed charging scheme, while I know that this scheme will prevent many in Ireland from helping the country remain green, if not get greener.
 

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I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
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What are you saying is a viable alternative?

Are you saying that they have to provide EV services as a loss-making business, and if so then who's money do you think should be lost in the venture, for your/EV-ers benefit?

If you are saying they can still make money if they charge in some different lower way, show us the numbers! If I believe them, I'll sign.
 

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What are you saying is a viable alternative?

Are you saying that they have to provide EV services as a loss-making business, and if so then who's money do you think should be lost in the venture, for your/EV-ers benefit?

If you are saying they can still make money if they charge in some different lower way, show us the numbers! If I believe them, I'll sign.
I don't think they are against paying, but the way it's going to be set up is all wrong.

How many ICE drivers do you know who pay a monthly fee to go to the garage, then have to pay for fuel?

Plus the experts say most journeys are less than 40 miles a day, so in theory shouldn't need public charging, but your going to have to pay £17 on the off chance you need use one.

Like I said what do visitors do, especially if the is a minimum term for the monthly fee ( I haven't looked at T&C to see)
 

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Chargemaster all over again, only worse. Have they really thought it through? 30c per minute equals 9 euros for 30 minutes (approx £7), which puts it well above the price of petrol/diesel. On top of that 17 euros a month fee (around £13 per month!).

Actually Chargemaster look good by comparison. They currently charge £7 per half hour on rapids, approx the same as Ecars plan to charge. However that is on a £20 per year card. Chargemaster's new card is £8 per month, as against £13 per month for ecars, but Chargemaster's fee per charge on a rapid will then be reduced to around 11p per Kw, under £2 for half hour charge for most EVs.

So if anyone feels Chargemaster are bad (and most people do!), ecars are proposing something far worse.

As a regular visitor to Ireland, are they offering 'short term' cards? 200 euros a year (around £150 a year) before you even charge is ridiculous, especially as the cost of the charge is well above the cost of the equivalent petrol/diesel.

Petition signed!
 

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@EVCI_Guy, thanks for your kind apology, which is gladly accepted. I am lucky to not have to worry about those costs that ESB are proposing, and in no way do they affect my feelings about my purchase. I can afford it. My worry is that there are many others, who are not in the position I happen to be in, for whom this will be a reason not to go for an EV.

I am also *sure* that this will be a key perk that would have made a lot of ICE drivers seriously consider EVs: the bragging rights ("I don't pay for fuel") were doing more to spread the EV love in Ireland than any ill-thought through government scheme could—even if those people were really paying 70% of their fuel while charging at home.

Yes, I agree with you that this is a small country and we should be lucky and grateful to ESB for having done what they have in providing us with a reasonable charging network (Chademo at least, CCS not so much). However, I also realise that this country has significant short and long-term commitments towards greening up, cutting our diesel and other fossil fuel dependence, and that means the support the country needs to put in place for EVs is a "cost of doing business". ESB, as a semi-state operation knows that, I am sure, which is why they got us here in the first place. Now is a crunch point, when things could get better, or get stalled. I know we are not rich like Norway is, whose network and EV support are best in the world, but I doubt that ESB need the max EUR 500k/annum they could get from the proposed charging scheme, while I know that this scheme will prevent many in Ireland from helping the country remain green, if not get greener.
The problem is that ESB Charging people to use the current network will raise very little money and do little to address the issues they face trying to make their network into a viable business. The real problem is that there is no government policy on charging infrastructure or real incentives that promote EV's in Ireland.
But then if ESB can't get the EV Charging business right what chance do we have the the government can make the policies needed for EV's to thrive in Ireland. Blind leading the blind. If you want to see how to do it right just look at FastNed in the Netherlands. Fastned could have paid for their infrastructure several times over for the amount of money ESB have spent so far.
 

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Awaiting Tesla M3—tired of ancient Nissan software
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Discussion Starter #12
Thank you, everyone, for your support. The petition had over 500 signatures, and a number of people raised their concerns with the Irish Commission for Energy Regulation. Today, the have scrapped the plans for introducing the subscriptions/per-minute fees, and all charging for charging is on hold, until they figure out how to do it so it works for the majority. Here is the email from Nissan Ireland, who also helped to lobby, and dare I guess, may have been instrumental:

The Commission for Energy Regulation (CER) have issued a statement today in which they have announced their decision to stop the implementation of the plans for customer charging on the public infrastructure for now. Their statement (Below) suggests that it will be several months before they will be in a position to give their views on the best way forward. Please ensure that you go back to any customers who have had issues with the proposed new charging in the light of this development.​

CER Statement:

We have updated our previous email to address the specific issue of ESBN's proposed charges for EVs. Please see below:

In CER/14/057 the CER set out its decision to provide for funding the EV pilot through network tariffs paid for by all distribution connected customers. This funding included a trial to understand the impact that EVs may have on the electricity distribution grid. This decision also set out the CER's intention to review the future use of the infrastructure once the pilot had been completed. The CER expects to receive the final report from ESBN later this year.

When we receive that report we will review it and consider the appropriate next steps. Including the ownership of the infrastructure and whether a charging regime should apply. In deciding not to allow ESBN to include EV infrastructure on the regulated asset base, the CER sought to strike a balance between the interests of consumers in terms of network costs, and by allowing an amount of funding for a pilot to gain a greater understanding of the potential impact electric vehicles may have on the system and electricity customers. This approach will help the CER make an informed decision in what is a new, and still developing, area.

In relation to the charges recently announced by ESBN, these were proposed charges. No final decision has been made on the implementation of any charges and a decision will not take place until after the CER has had the opportunity to review and consider the details of the ESBN report. Our expectation is that the ESBN report will be of a highly technical nature and it will take a number of months for the CER to review and make a decision on how to proceed. Unfortunately, due to the technical nature of the report and the complexity of the issues to be considered, we will not be able to provide a firm timeline on when the CER will be in a position to make a decision. In the interim we can confirm that the proposed ESBN charges will not be implemented in January as had previously been announced.

Yours sincerely,

Lorna Powell
Customer Care Team
 
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