Speak EV - Electric Car Forums banner

1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,205 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
As I detailed in another post (viewtopic.php?f=31&t=256) POD Point are moving away from RFID to a PAYG mobile-phone model.

This isn't launched yet, but in the meanwhile they are offering to put forum members on the PAYG waiting list and provide a free RFID card (subject to T&Cs).

If you want one, please contact Hannah Burton ([email protected]) stating that you would like to be notified when the PAYG network is ready and a free RFID card in the meantime.

Hannah asks that you include the following details -

CLIENT DETAILS
Name:
Address line 1:
Address line 2:
Email:
Telephone:
Electric Vehicle Type:
Electric Vehicle Registration:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,106 Posts
Re: Free POD Point RFID Card

What!!!

That is just CRAZY!!!

Why do we need yet another RFID card? Credit and debit cards are RFID cards. There is absolutely no reason for them to issue us with a separate card. If they just got their systems to recognise the cards we all have, credit cards, then we would need this rediculous state of affairs of needing them to send us a card in the post before we can use a PAYG charge station. What if I haven't already got one of their cards and I need to use a PAYG charge station? I cannot. Sure, it is PAYG as far as the money is concerned but it isn't PAYG meaning just turn up and pay... you have to join the scheme in advance.

May be this is just a stage we have to go through before we get proper, full, PAYG.

Does anyone have any idea of prices yet?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,205 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Re: Free POD Point RFID Card

I agree we don't need another RFID card - I already have a car full!

I think you may have misunderstood? POD-Point are moving away from RFID cards to a PAYG MOBILE PHONE based system. However, *for now* they will give you a free RFID while they switch over.

Your statement that all credit cards are RFID is incorrect. A lot of banks still do not issue them, partly due to security concerns, for example HSBC and Nationwide. Even those that do issue wait until your card expires, so the current contactless card base is estimated at around 10% (nobody appears to know)

IMO all the charging providers will switch to a mobile phone (text or app) model. I suspect that POD Point are hoping to sell their solution to others and that is where the "5000 points" mentioned comes from... Text is an easy way to take small payments - think ring tones; it is ideal to take 50p or £1 as payment for an EV charge.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,205 Posts
Discussion Starter #4

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,106 Posts
Re: Free POD Point RFID Card

proddick said:
I agree we don't need another RFID card - I already have a car full!

I think you may have misunderstood? POD-Point are moving away from RFID cards to a PAYG MOBILE PHONE based system. However, *for now* they will give you a free RFID while they switch over.

Your statement that all credit cards are RFID is incorrect. A lot of banks still do not issue them, partly due to security concerns, for example HSBC and Nationwide. Even those that do issue wait until your card expires, so the current contactless card base is estimated at around 10% (nobody appears to know)

IMO all the charging providers will switch to a mobile phone (text or app) model. I suspect that POD Point are hoping to sell their solution to others and that is where the "5000 points" mentioned comes from... Text is an easy way to take small payments - think ring tones; it is ideal to take 50p or £1 as payment for an EV charge.
Sorry! My bad. I didn't realise that so few were RFID enabled.

Yes, I did misinterpret your statement about them issuing a card. That makes sense then.

Text is a good way to pay for such things but it is expensive for the operator. I wanted to set up a service paid by text but the charges were about 50% of the fee paid. I am sure that big operators might get it cheaper but I still expect it isn't cheap. Ring tone sales has very little infrastructure cost but that isn't so with car charging.

What is good is that many operators are starting to recognise what EV drivers need. I think it is all moving in the right direction :)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,205 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Re: Free POD Point RFID Card

I agree that using a small scale service to collect text charges can cost up to 50%.

I was assuming that POD Point would be implementing their own charging infrastucture and make a small profit on each transaction they handle for the post owners on their (and possibly other) EV networks.

I guess we'll see when they announce more details...
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,205 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Re: Free POD Point RFID Card

Kevin - Your statement "all reissued credit cards [...] have this technology" is incorrect. Not all banks currently issue contactless payment cards - HSBC and Nationwide are just two examples.

There also isn't a lot of public appetite for contactless payment due to many issues, the lack of perceived security being one. The (possibly unfounded) reports of 'hacking' the cards has not helped with this.

I think a lot of the public (me included) would be unwilling to swipe their credit card at a post in the ground in an unsecured location!
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,715 Posts
Re: Free POD Point RFID Card

proddick said:
Kevin - Your statement "all reissued credit cards [...] have this technology" is incorrect. Not all banks currently issue contactless payment cards - HSBC and Nationwide are just two examples.
Sorry but I've been told that my new HSBC VISA card will have it and they are rolling it out on all new cards... certainly the website seems clear on this;

HSBC: Our Debit Cards now come with an exciting new feature

proddick said:
I think a lot of the public (me included) would be unwilling to swipe their credit card at a post in the ground in an unsecured location!
My colleague recently paid for our car parking using his contactless card... this was in a fairly run down part of London and if anything it felt better than trying to enter a PIN or even worse cash.

All new phones (including the iPhone 5) will embed this technology... IMO ease of use will quickly overcome peoples fears... I certainly see it in use at lots of coffee shops now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,106 Posts
Re: Free POD Point RFID Card

Kevin Sharpe said:
these network folks just need to join the 21st century and use contactless payments... all reissued credit cards and most new phones have this tech
I think they will. Clearly there is fast movement in attitudes in the whole area of charging for charging (ahhhm!).

A year ago there were no PAYG, anywhere as far as I recall. Now Pod-Point, Charge-Your-Car and potentially Engienie are all moving towards a PAYG model. I am certain that in spite of this development from POLAR, to retain the membership model, they too will eventually move towards PAYG in time.

The problem really is one of timescales. We all want all networks to be PAYG or if they are not then a single card to work on all networks. I think it is unreasonable to imagine that everything can happen as we all want it too immediately and at first try. It is a process. A process that takes time and effort to develop and I think that these various development towards a PAYG model are hugely encouraging that this is the way the industry is generally moving.

We have been shouting (figuratively speaking) at POLAR to change their payment model. We have been shouting for PAYG... it is happening and a lot faster than I had thought possible but it now needs our support to show these businesses that these efforts are worthwhile. My fear now is that we will continue shouting for perfection and our shouts may well now turn against us. I would like to see us support POLAR now. Not because they are perfect or even as we want them to be... but because they are most definitely moving in the right direction. They need to be encouraged to proceed with their infrastructure roll out whilst we encourage them towards more fast charging and towards a genuine PAYG model. But I think that the time for shouting might be over for the time being... at least until we can get a better idea of where they are going long-term.

I know that I may be a rare voice in this respect but I now feel that over the past few months I sense there has been a significant change in direction from the public charging infrastructure organisations more towards PAYG and towards a more listening approach.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,109 Posts
Re: Free POD Point RFID Card

dpeilow said:
NFC cards were already shown to be vulnerable to an Android app where you can just walk around taking payments off nearby people: http://www.nfc.cc/2012/04/02/android-ap ... editcards/
Not quite. You can walk around taking credit card details off people.

To take payments off them you would have to use those details in some way. The CVC obtained from the NFC reader is not the same as the CVC from normal 'not present' use of the card so you cannot just pretend that the card was used to buy something over the phone. Even if you do find some way to feed the details you obtained into the system such that it appears to the bank to be a legitimate NFC transaction all the customer has to do is challenge the transaction and the bank should refund them (and because it is limited to low value transactions the bank shouldn't quibble).
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,205 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Re: Free POD Point RFID Card

Kevin - It is good to see HSBC are now offering contactless. I got a new debit card recently and it did not have this feature - on asking I was advised they did not issue them. I note this is for the Visa card; as this is the only card accepted at the Olympic venues I guess Visa are keen for people to go contactless there?

Clearly some people will be happy to use contactless payment even in 'dodgy' areas, but I believe there is still a lot of distrust amongst the public, so we will have to see how it progresses over the next year or so.

I believe Oyster was accepted by Londoners because there was an air gap between their Oyster card and their bank accounts. I think developing any business service that REQUIRES contactless payment using a bank card at present would be risky.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,715 Posts
Re: Free POD Point RFID Card

Duncan said:
Even if you do find some way to feed the details you obtained into the system such that it appears to the bank to be a legitimate NFC transaction all the customer has to do is challenge the transaction and the bank should refund them (and because it is limited to low value transactions the bank shouldn't quibble).
None of the payment processors are worried about this and indeed the banks recently increased the payment limit from £15 to £20. Like all new technologies we will be hesitant at first but I have no doubt this is going mainstream.

I really like the possibilities of this technology for EV charging because the amounts involved are a perfect fit and simply swiping to pay will feel 'modern and futuristic' just like the car's themselves. Just as importantly though is the fact that it's using mainstream POS services not bespoke EV centric back office systems.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,715 Posts
Re: Free POD Point RFID Card

proddick said:
I think developing any business service that REQUIRES contactless payment using a bank card at present would be risky.
Personally, I think the current EV charging networks that require government funding to stay in business carry a lot more risk (what do you think will happen to the CENEX compliant back office systems when the PiP funding ends in March?) :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,106 Posts
Re: Free POD Point RFID Card

We'll see won't we.

I suspect they are more clever than we give them credit for. They will find a way or sink. You think they will sink? I am not so sure. When faced with the consequences I suspect they will evolved to survive and the move to PAYG is part of that.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,715 Posts
Re: Free POD Point RFID Card

Paul Churchley said:
You think they will sink? I am not so sure. When faced with the consequences I suspect they will evolved to survive and the move to PAYG is part of that.
OLEV were adamant at the recent SMMT meeting that no more cash was available. However, 6 of the PiP's were there pleading for an extension so who knows?

One of the issues is that we have one provider of back office for all the PiP's so not really sure how they will survive..... my guess will be a sell off to a private company.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
8,106 Posts
Re: Free POD Point RFID Card

Kevin Sharpe said:
One of the issues is that we have one provider of back office for all the PiP's so not really sure how they will survive..... my guess will be a sell off to a private company.
My guess too :)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,205 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Re: Free POD Point RFID Card

In the POD Point PAYG announcement, they state "We expect to have 750 charge points across the uk enabled by the end of 2012. And 5,000 charge points on the PPN by the end of 2013".

Could the PiPs be part of those 5,000?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
11,205 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Re: POD Point Move to PAYG - Free Interim RFID

I thought this entry in the FAQ was interesting...

Why is the POD Point PAYG Network so exciting?

Up until now, the world of EV charging has been dominated by companies trying to persuade people to join up to their proprietary systems for an upfront, or monthly fee. In return for that fee, customers get access to only that schemes charge points. Our pay as you go network all about opening the market up, so EV drivers can charge anywhere, on any post, with no membership or monthly fee! This is how EV charging should always have been.
 
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
Top