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Discussion Starter #41
I'm curious what sort of issues on FB have put you off the most nosmrti?

I couldn't convince myself to buy a M3 but leasing for 2 years is very tempting.
 

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That's the opposite of what I've done.

Started off pretty sure I'd be ordering a m3P but then spent a couple of months in the model 3 UK facebook group and have been completely put off and now have a deposit down on the Polestar 2.

and yes, I've heard the argument plenty of times about how 'it's only people with problems that post' but, if I'd made a list of all of the model 3 issues I've read about over the last few weeks it'd be dozens and dozens of different things and, not only that, Tesla have been really unconvincing in their customer support in far too many examples. I'm sure it'll improve, but for now, I'm not at all tempted to roll the dice.
The patchy after-sales support (and the fact there are niggles in the first place) is definitely something that's putting me off, I've (touch wood) not had a single problem with any of my new cars in the last 9 years (Volvo, Audi, VW).
 

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I'm curious what sort of issues on FB have put you off the most nosmrti?

I couldn't convince myself to buy a M3 but leasing for 2 years is very tempting.
I wouldn’t buy any EV outright as the technology is changing so quickly, I’m leasing my M3P and would have done the same with a P2, my wife has a MG ZS EV on order too.
I’m also on the FB M3 page, and yes there’s a lot of niggly things re build quality, service centres and after sales, but overall the people who have the car seem to love it in spite of its flaws.
The process of having an SR+ from EVEzy helped me decide to get an M3P as opposed to a P2, it is effectively a try before you buy/lease scenario.
The car is simply fantastic, not perfect but nothing ever is.


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Discussion Starter #45
Conversley, I wouldn't buy a M3 but am considering buying a P2 through my company. Mainly because I anticipate being happier with the quality and ownership than I may be with a Tesla. I have had a V70 for 4 years and have been happy with adaptive cruise, build quality and reliability on that. The P2 will be a step up and I should be happy keeping it for about 5 years. Over that time, after selling it, it will cost less than leasing it I think. But no worries over mileage, my wife kerbing it or the kids filling it with mud and assorted rubbish.
 

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Thats a tough choice as to buy outright or pcp/lease/subscription etc. I get all the points about buying is risky as the tech is changing so quickly but I struggle with the maths if the car is kept for 5 years minimum and you need 15,000 miles per annum minimum. Hence I am probably going to buy (through company scheme) but not yet 100% decided.
 

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Discussion Starter #47
The polestar plan will be interesting, but I anticipate it being too much for me. Did someone say 799?
 

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The polestar plan will be interesting, but I anticipate it being too much for me. Did someone say 799?
Yes I read that, although that was for the launch edition I believe. My M3P lease is £584 inc VAT on 3+36, that’s a healthy difference


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The polestar plan will be interesting, but I anticipate it being too much for me. Did someone say 799?
The Model 3 P and LR are £799/mo on EVEzy. I was told by the Polestar folks that the P2 would be around £700/mo on subscription, but the figures have yet to be finalised.

@Phoenix - the subscription includes insurance, maintenance, and 12k miles per year. Is that comparable to your lease?
 

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I'm curious what sort of issues on FB have put you off the most nosmrti?
It's too many to list out which is kind of the point :)

If it was just restricted to one or two main areas (like paintwork) then I'd be more confident that it's going to get under control but it's all sorts. I'd recommend joining the group and just observing for a while before doing anything. It's not just the niggles/issues it's the way Tesla go about dealing with them. Sometimes they are very good but there's so many examples of them needing weeks before an appointment can be booked in or bouncing the problem back as 'within tolerances' or even asking for £75 to be paid up-front before they'll examine the car. As you can imagine, that hasn't gone down too well with owners who have paid £50k (one guy is still owed £1k by Tesla when they asked him for his £75).

Saying that, I definitely didn't expect the car to be perfect and there are lots of people happily putting up with these issues due to the model 3 being such an exciting car so it's all about how comfy you are taking that risk.
 

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The Model 3 P and LR are £799/mo on EVEzy. I was told by the Polestar folks that the P2 would be around £700/mo on subscription, but the figures have yet to be finalised.

@Phoenix - the subscription includes insurance, maintenance, and 12k miles per year. Is that comparable to your lease?
My lease is on 12k miles, but no insurance or maintenance.
Had a quote from LV, who people have recommended for EV insurance, and it was £180 more per year than my ICE Audi which is perfectly acceptable, I am an old fart with full NCD living in a quiet area. Maintenance is of course an unknown.

EVezys price of £799 is ridiculous imho when the SR+ I’m £599


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Due to change company car in May next year and trying to decide between one of these two (would be M3P and probably non-"performance" P2) and here are my thoughts:

Have two small kids (4 + 1) and with an estate car currently I am put off by the saloon boot on the M3, its really handy being able to pile everything in to an estate boot and I'm apprehensive to move away from that. The P2 should be pretty useable given its a hatchback.
Prefer the more conventional interior of the P2 in that it has a few buttons and controls on the stalks, the M3 is a bit sparse but I'm sure you get used to it
Prefer the two-screen setup of the P2
Don't love the exterior looks of either to be honest, M3 looks like a melted hippo and the arse/rear 3/4 of the P2 is definitely a bit odd
Access to supercharger network is not a consideration for me as I'll be doing 12k a year of which 10k is a 15 mile each-way commute with my own charger at either end
There is no Tesla dealer or service centre (yet) in Northern Ireland, SC is planned and in the works though

Have sent Polestar an email asking about availability of a test drive in Ireland and where they will be sold/maintained. Don't expect an answer anytime soon though!
Hi slide, let me know how u get on. I am ni as well and keen on p2
 

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For the benefit of anyone undecided and considering both vehicules, i'll explain the reason why I choose to reserve a P*2 over a M3.
I live near Montréal, where we have very rough winters with lots of rapid temperature changes generating complex weather phenomenons.
We can have snow, followed by warm temp that will melt the snow to slush, followed by sudden temp drop during the night, converting the slush to ice.
Also, lots of abarsives and chemicals are scattered on road.

Which means that, for me,...

1) Frameless windows is an absolute deal breaker. The M3 needs to lower the window when opening the door, which means you can not open the door and enter the car when the windows are frozen. Defreezing the windows by pre-heating the car for a long time, if it works, is only half of the solution because...
2) M3 fancy door handles. Anyone with some knowledge in physics knows about the lever simple machine : A lever amplifies an input force to provide a greater output force. In the case of the M3 (and Aston Martin btw), the door handle is designed against the user because you need to press on the smallest portion of the lever first to gain access to the longer portion. Lots of force is needed to free the handle from the ice, when possible.
3) Body protection. The P*2 has plastic trims all around the bottom of the car. The parts of the car most affected by debris projection and salt is plastic instead of fragile paint. Many M3 owners were shocked to see their fenders sandblasted to the metal after one winter. Rust beginning to show up within the first year of ownership.
4) Charge port design. M3 seems to have lots of frozen charge port door problems. Insufficient sealing and opened by a motor. P*2 seems to have huge seals and is opened by hand. By having to push the door first to open it, any ice will crack and fall off. Not flashy-techy but better design.

So, even if the M3 has that more range, costs this less and accelerate that much faster, it doesn't matter a lot to me.
I just want to be able to enter the car when I want, charge it when I want and not visit the bodyshop after each winter.
 

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Discussion Starter #54
Interesting insight to the harsh climate you experience. While not as bad in the uk I live on quite high ground and on snowy or very cold days will be more glad than ever I chose the p2 over the m3, thank you.
 

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Talking about winter, another interesting topic is range loss.
We cannot compare both cars yet, so I did not include this point in my previous post.

Journalists in Québec made a real life road test (-15C, snow, wind) and ended up with a 39% winter range loss for the Model 3, which is enormous.
Other brands usually have a range loss of about 20% to 25%.

It's difficult to know what's the most important factor leading to this loss (insulation?)
I'm really curious to see if Volvo/Polestar has done anything different to end up with a better performance...

EDIT/UPDATE
I just learned that the Model 3 has no battery pack heater, unlike the Model S and X.
That's why the range loss is big, a cold battery pack is not efficient.
Polestar presentation mentions a flat plate cooling system under each module but no word about heating.
So I guess i'll have to lower my expectations about this.
 

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Talking about winter, another interesting topic is range loss.
We cannot compare both cars yet, so I did not include this point in my previous post.

Journalists in Québec made a real life road test (-15C, snow, wind) and ended up with a 39% winter range loss for the Model 3, which is enormous.
Other brands usually have a range loss of about 20% to 25%.

It's difficult to know what's the most important factor leading to this loss (insulation?)
I'm really curious to see if Volvo/Polestar has done anything different to end up with a better performance...

EDIT/UPDATE
I just learned that the Model 3 has no battery pack heater, unlike the Model S and X.
That's why the range loss is big, a cold battery pack is not efficient.
Polestar presentation mentions a flat plate cooling system under each module but no word about heating.
So I guess i'll have to lower my expectations about this.
The Model 3 can heat the battery: https://electrek.co/2017/08/24/tesla-model-3-exclusive-battery-pack-architecture/

"Waste heat from the powertrain can be used when the car is moving, but Tesla designed a thermal controller for Model 3 that can also use heat from the powertrain even when the vehicle is parked, like at a Supercharger for example, which is important since the charge rate drops if the battery pack is too cold.

Even when parked, Tesla’s software can send a request to the powertrain inverter to start powering up and pass the appropriate currents to the motor in order to produce enough heat to warm the cells – all while not producing any torque so the Model 3 doesn’t move.

Tesla apparently judged the system efficient enough to not include an external battery pack heater in the Model 3 and replaced it virtually entirely through software."



Also, were the conditions tested between the Tesla and the "other models" you mentioned identical. Without knowing the test conditions, the comparison is meaningless.
 

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The Model 3 can heat the battery: https://electrek.co/2017/08/24/vroom-model-3-exclusive-battery-pack-architecture/

Even when parked, Vroom’s software can send a request to the powertrain inverter to start powering up and pass the appropriate currents to the motor in order to produce enough heat to warm the cells – all while not producing any torque so the Model 3 doesn’t move.
I think I have the right video below - you can see the Front stators heating up and the pack inlet temperature increase in realtime with some canbus tools,

 

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Thank you both, interesting.
The more I read more about this topic (AAA tests results, etc.), the more I understand there's not much manufacturers can do about it.
 

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Talking about winter, another interesting topic is range loss.
We cannot compare both cars yet, so I did not include this point in my previous post.

Journalists in Québec made a real life road test (-15C, snow, wind) and ended up with a 39% winter range loss for the Model 3, which is enormous.
Other brands usually have a range loss of about 20% to 25%.

It's difficult to know what's the most important factor leading to this loss (insulation?)
I'm really curious to see if Volvo/Polestar has done anything different to end up with a better performance...

EDIT/UPDATE
I just learned that the Model 3 has no battery pack heater, unlike the Model S and X.
That's why the range loss is big, a cold battery pack is not efficient.
Polestar presentation mentions a flat plate cooling system under each module but no word about heating.
So I guess i'll have to lower my expectations about this.
The piece of kit which makes the most difference is the fitting of a heat pump. Model 3 doesn't have one, Polestar have responded to some fairly assertive customer feedback by confirming that the P2 will be fitted with a heat pump. With a heat pump preservation of range and comfort in winter gets easier. VW/BMW/Merc etc all fit heat pumps forcthis reason ...hth
 

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The piece of kit which makes the most difference is the fitting of a heat pump. Model 3 doesn't have one, Polestar have responded to some fairly assertive customer feedback by confirming that the P2 will be fitted with a heat pump. With a heat pump preservation of range and comfort in winter gets easier. VW/BMW/Merc etc all fit heat pumps forcthis reason ...hth
That’s what Jaguar said about the iPace. Bragged about all the heat recovery systems.

It’s one of the least efficient EVs out there.
 
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