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I have posted something about this elsewhere, but I thought that this is more of a general discussion.

For a long while, manufactures have been talking about reaching Price Parity for EVs. Tesla are still trying and Elon wants to push the price down further, but it is hard to compare their prices directly anyway, so it is good to look at legacy manufactures. VW famously said that the ID3 would be about the same price of a Golf Diesel, but this hasn't happened yet and now I see some news where they are comparing 5 years of ownership to get parity. This is being referred to a TCO (Total Cost of Ownership). Experts think that TCO parity will be here 2025-2030!

But, as far as I can see, there is one car that looks like it has achieved real price parity now and it is from Ford. I know that people are hot and cold about the Mustang Mach E (and may argue that it is not a real Mustang), but I think that Ford have taken the right direction for this launch. £40K for an eFord sounds over the top, but £40K for a Mustang sounds like a good deal. It is the same price as the base 'ecoBoost' Mustang (which I expect that some may argue isn't a real Mustang as well). Unless I am mistaken, this could be the first EV launch which has price parity with the ICE version. Maybe the future is closer than we think?
 

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Zoe Devotee
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I've long said when Ford finally enter the EV arena they will do it right. Looks like they are. After a few bumps along the way, especially with the PHEV Kuga. 🤦‍♂️

Kinda wish they would do a sensible Puma PHEV not the micro-hybrid they have done. My partner would probably consider that as a gateway to full EV one day.
 

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Price parity... what is parity? The vehicle cost, the TCO as the OP put it, or is it in fact the point at which it costs more for the incumbents to keep ICE factories running due to supply chain reduction and cost increases for the entire vehicle line up.
Lack of vertical integration will hurt Ford, VW, Renault etc. much more than anticipated IMO, they have made BEV's cost more by the way they do things, and the procurement processes they cling to. Lack of R&D investment in technology for BEV's means they can't develop new vehicles as quickly as the new comers, and I think we'll see many more companies like Tesla over the next 10 years take market share and bring the cost down while the incumbents struggle to appease share holders and board members etc.
 

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It depends on what you look at.

I think that Tesla HAVE achieved price parity.

Model 3 SR+ is around £40k. A BMW 330i with pano roof, heated electric seats, electric steering column, advance driver assists, etc (ie spec parity with a 3SR+) is also around £40k. So is an equivalent merc C300 or Volvo S60 T5.

Model 3 LR is around £47k. A BMW M340i xDrive starts from £49k.

Model S LR is £77980. Audi S7 with Pano roof, Tour pack, city pack, etc is £75k OTR.

Model X LR is £82980. Audi SQ7 with pano roof, tour pack, city pack is £85k OTR.
 

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Zoe Devotee
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It depends on what you look at.

I think that Tesla HAVE achieved price parity.

Model 3 SR+ is around £40k. A BMW 330i with pano roof, heated electric seats, electric steering column, advance driver assists, etc (ie spec parity with a 3SR+) is also around £40k. So is an equivalent merc C300 or Volvo S60 T5.

Model 3 LR is around £47k. A BMW M340i xDrive starts from £49k.

Model S LR is £77980. Audi S7 with Pano roof, Tour pack, city pack, etc is £75k OTR.

Model X LR is £82980. Audi SQ7 with pano roof, tour pack, city pack is £85k OTR.

Good examples, but price parity shouldn't be at the detriment of product quality. Are the cars you've listed in similar ballparks for build quality etc?
 

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It's easier to claim price parity on a higher priced luxury car than something that is in the current top 5 sales list.

Mustang maybe, but when we see a sub £20K electric Focus or Fiesta with 200 miles range, that's when you can call it.

There is a lot of costs that can be absorbed in a £40K car. The analysis I looked at last on BoM (Bill of Materials) on manufactured cars was sub 20% of retail cost, even if an electric drivetrain and battery is 3 times the cost of an ICE, there seems to be some room for movement...
 

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Unless I am mistaken, this could be the first EV launch which has price parity with the ICE version. Maybe the future is closer than we think?
I read the situation differently - most car manufacturers can make a good, long-range EV within a budget that gets it to market for around £40k OTR. Whether it's Tesla's M3, VW's ID.3, the Ford Mustang Mach-e etc etc.

Therefore for premium models already retailing at around that price, where generally the profit margins are good, the manufacturers can offer electric versions at the same or close to the same price. In that segment of the market, price parity is here for some models and probably technically possible for others.

For the bulk of the market, cars below £40k, it's more mixed - most European manufacturers seem to struggle to get prices below around £25k and the models are a compromise on range and features, not generally comparable to an equivalent priced ICE. Long range vehicles are £30k+. Price parity is still a way off.
 

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It's a matter of what you benchmark.

I find my model 3 is better than my old volvo and our neighbours 330d GT, but not as good as our lexus on build. The point is that it's in there, so yes I think comparable. Maybe the Audis I give are a higher build quality than the S and X, but then again they lag quite a bit on performance (something else I was trying to equalise, hence 3SR+ vs 330i, 3LR vs 340i Xdrive, etc).

@Bodgerx - absolutely right. But my point is that price parity is coming down the scale. 2 years ago it wasn't at £40k. Now it is.
 

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Zoe Devotee
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but when we see a sub £20K electric Focus or Fiesta with 200 miles range, that's when you can call it.
ummm hate to break this to you but for a decent spec Fiesta your looking at upwards of 20k NOW! +£22k for a Focus.
 

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ummm hate to break this to you but for a decent spec Fiesta your looking at upwards of 20k NOW! +£22k for a Focus.
Fiesta starts at £15K OTR.

Majority of the sales are in the lower-mid spec models.

Focus starts at £21K OTR

That's without factoring in that Ford discounts are one of the biggest in the business. Hardley anyone is paying list for a Focus, whereas in a Tesla they definitely are...
 

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Zoe Devotee
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Fiesta starts at £15K OTR.

Majority of the sales are in the lower-mid spec models.

Focus starts at £21K OTR

That's without factoring in that Ford discounts are one of the biggest in the business. Hardley anyone is paying list for a Focus, whereas in a Tesla they definitely are...
Fiesta starts at £16,640 if you check their website, and that's for their absolute base model, you probably never see a Trend model on UK roads. ST line their more popular model starts at £19,840 with no options. Zetec Focus, again base mode starts from £21,210. ST Line, their more popular model starts at £24,260.

You might get a discount from the popular model in the range, ST Line but go for a shopping model and you'll get very little reduction because Ford gear up to make heaps of their most popular model.
 

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So, we can agree that parity's not with us yet.
Good examples are cars that have ICE and full EV variants: Volvo's XC40 springs to mind. Way more than £10k extra for the EV.
Kia Niro: similar difference.
Maybe parity will never come without artificial taxes and subsidies like Norway has. On the other hand, in several years' time, supply may outstrip demand as more legacy makers gear up to proper full-scale EV production.
In the meantime I'll stick with my cheap, economical, comfortable, high-quality and reliable oil-burner.
 

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something that is in the current top 5 sales list.

when we see a sub £20K electric Focus or Fiesta with 200 miles range, that's when you can call it.
I would say never, except Tesla. There will be bugger all dealer service and parts sales with a BEV, especially once out of main car warranty. And people will soon get tired for paying a "cheap" £100 - £200 BEV service for a Tech to kick the tires, top up your screen wash, have a look around the car on a ramp a tick a load of boxes on a sheet and then plug the car into the computer and pint out a readout that says "Computer says car is perfect"

Customers will start demanding Tesla matched systems and start demanding that servicing in 100% optional and will not affect the warranty of not serviced.

So car makers and dealers will have a huge margin hole. The dealer bit is easy depending on country, buy your own dealers and run them yourself like Tesla. But they will have to make a much bigger £5k-£10k margin on the car initial sale to offset 8+ years (battery warranty) of bugger all service and parts income.

At best I reckon it might reach £5k for BEV vs ICE for same spec. But the even then with fuel savings the TCO will still be cheaper with a BEV vs an ICE. Until tax per mile systems are introduced to replaced lost fuel duty, but then they will also apply to ICE cars too no doubt at a parity rate and FD wont be dropped so with an ICE you will pay tax twice.

But Tesla will crack on, build locally to remove import duties, and start spitting out a smaller cheaper 200mile + range 5 door hatch. The others will have to match it otherwise price /spec wise otherwise cutomers will just buy Tesla. It will most likely be no smaller than Focus/Golf sized and be made in china for export worldwide. Elon said in 2018 it would be within 5 years so it should be availalble to buy worldwide by 2023.

 

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I would say never, except Tesla. There will be bugger all dealer service and parts sales with a BEV, especially once out of main car warranty. And people will soon get tired for paying a "cheap" £100 - £200 BEV service for a Tech to kick the tires, top up your screen wash, have a look around the car on a ramp a tick a load of boxes on a sheet and then plug the car into the computer and pint out a readout that says "Computer says car is perfect"
You know there's not actually that much to servicing a modern ICE, an oil change is generally pretty easy, £5 for the filter and then £20 for the oil, probably less for a dealer buying in bulk, changing the oil is pretty quick. Changing an air filter is a 2 minute job in many cars, fuel filters take a bit longer but they're on longer intervals. Coolant top-ups are quick. Cam-belts are generally at 60k+ miles, so far less frequent.

This idea that ICE cars have huge maintenance requirements and EVs are a total game changer being maintenance free is wrong. A lot of what is done on both is purely checks on all of the systems and components they share - steering, braking systems, air-con and pollen filters, tyres, software updates. This will need to happen regardless.

There's also systems on the EV which don't exist on an ICE but which are critical and will need some maintenance and checks - the battery will probably be checked in some form, to check cell voltages, connections for signs of over-heating. The ultra-critical battery cooling system will need some checks and basic maintenance - does the liquid cooling system need topping up, any pumps or connections leaking, periodic coolant changes. Do filters need cleaning or changing on air cooled systems. And what about them heat pumps..... how much refrigerant is left in them, what's the system pressure, do they need topping up?

This idea of a maintenance free EV is well, a nice idea, but it's just not reality, they're going to need maintenance and given the complexity and dangers associated with their electrical systems, they may actually drive more work back to the dealers who have the software and parts access needed to maintain the battery and drive systems.
 

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You know there's not actually that much to servicing a modern ICE, an oil change is generally pretty easy, £5 for the filter and then £20 for the oil, probably less for a dealer buying in bulk, changing the oil is pretty quick. Changing an air filter is a 2 minute job in many cars, fuel filters take a bit longer but they're on longer intervals. Coolant top-ups are quick. Cam-belts are generally at 60k+ miles, so far less frequent.

This idea that ICE cars have huge maintenance requirements and EVs are a total game changer being maintenance free is wrong. A lot of what is done on both is purely checks on all of the systems and components they share - steering, braking systems, air-con and pollen filters, tyres, software updates. This will need to happen regardless.

There's also systems on the EV which don't exist on an ICE but which are critical and will need some maintenance and checks - the battery will probably be checked in some form, to check cell voltages, connections for signs of over-heating. The ultra-critical battery cooling system will need some checks and basic maintenance - does the liquid cooling system need topping up, any pumps or connections leaking, periodic coolant changes. Do filters need cleaning or changing on air cooled systems. And what about them heat pumps..... how much refrigerant is left in them, what's the system pressure, do they need topping up?

This idea of a maintenance free EV is well, a nice idea, but it's just not reality, they're going to need maintenance and given the complexity and dangers associated with their electrical systems, they may actually drive more work back to the dealers who have the software and parts access needed to maintain the battery and drive systems.
How long have you owned a BEV?, because we have owned one since 2014, has 105k miles on the clock, done 90k miles in it and you are talking rubbish. It has hardly cost anything in maintenance, in fact nearly nothing if you exclude what would be needed maintenance on an ICE too. Hasn't been dealer serviced since 80k miles as we knew @ 100k the 8 year battery/drivetrain warranty would expire. And almost all small issues have either been easily self solved with YouTube / this website or used an cheap local INDY mechanic. And it does exactly the same daily miles on battery as it did in 2014.

And it has passed every MOT ist time with no advisory's. Pretty much tyres is all we do to it.
 

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How long have you owned a BEV?, because we have owned one since 2014, has 105k miles on the clock, done 90k miles in it and you are talking rubbish. It has hardly cost anything in maintenance, in fact nearly nothing if you exclude what would be needed maintenance on an ICE too. Hasn't been dealer serviced since 80k miles as we knew @ 100k the 8 year battery/drivetrain warranty would expire. And almost all small issues have either been easily self solved with YouTube / this website or used an cheap local INDY mechanic. And it does exactly the same daily miles on battery as it did in 2014.

And it has passed every MOT ist time with no advisory's. Pretty much tyres is all we do to it.
I said EVs are not maintenance free and you seem to have agreed by listing all the maintenance you've done on it - dealer serviced upto 80k miles to take you upto the end of the battery warranty and then you've carried out repairs yourself or used a local mechanic.... much like owning an ICE.
 
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