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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi,

New on this forum, read a lot of cool stuff. Except too much stuff written in some weird imperial units... miles...

I've been searching (and asked my dealership) about how to preserve the battery best. I've read tons of stuff about Tesla's and their battery management and suggestions to only charge to around 80% for everyday use, and just charge to 100% when needed.
I can't find any info about how Renault would recommend to handle the battery. And why is there no way of limiting the charge in the car?? So when there is no way to limit the charge, i'm just guessing Renault recommends me to just charge to 100% all the time? And how about leaving the plug in when at 100%?

I love my Zoe but I don't have much faith in Renault in their battery management... Sadly the "timed charging" and such features feels like its something made in 1998 :D

Also the display options... Why can't I see kwh/100km for lifetime of the car or on multiple trips or something? I'm kinda baffled with the very few options and stuff in general to put on the display. I get to see one giant leaf instead of useful data?? :D
 

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There is no evidence that keeping a Zoe at a lower charge level helps the battery.
The Zoe is nowhere near as harsh as Tesla on its batteries - energy output and charge rates are lower. It also doesn't let you use the full capacity of the battery to help protect it. It also has had active battery heating / cooling from the air con system from day one (unlike some other manufacturers).

On keeping plugged in, you can pre-condition a Zoe to get it ready to drive. Doing this using mains electricity will save battery capacity.

Zoe is designed to be simple and do the work for you.
 

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Hi,

New on this forum, read a lot of cool stuff. Except too much stuff written in some weird imperial units... miles...

I've been searching (and asked my dealership) about how to preserve the battery best. I've read tons of stuff about Tesla's and their battery management and suggestions to only charge to around 80% for everyday use, and just charge to 100% when needed.
I can't find any info about how Renault would recommend to handle the battery. And why is there no way of limiting the charge in the car?? So when there is no way to limit the charge, i'm just guessing Renault recommends me to just charge to 100% all the time? And how about leaving the plug in when at 100%?

I love my Zoe but I don't have much faith in Renault in their battery management... Sadly the "timed charging" and such features feels like its something made in 1998 :D

Also the display options... Why can't I see kwh/100km for lifetime of the car or on multiple trips or something? I'm kinda baffled with the very few options and stuff in general to put on the display. I get to see one giant leaf instead of useful data?? :D
The whole 100%/80% thing causes a lot of heat but not much light, unfortunately. My understanding (from Ewan McTurk's Plug Life channel on You Tube - he's a chemist in the battery business) is that charging the battery places increasing mechanical stress on it as it fills up. Now, given that most EVs have a buffer so you can't fill the battery to a physical 100% it's not clear if filling to that 100% actually causes problems. The precautionary principle says if you don't need that last 20% of range then don't fill the battery as you'll never have to find out if filling it to 100% causes a problem. On the other hand, if you need to fill it to 100% then just do it although minimising the time spent at 100% would be the next level of precaution. You may also like the approach of some on this site who take the stance that they will only own the car for a couple of years from new, so they'll treat the battery how they like as serious degradation is unlikely in only that space of time, and they have a good warranty anyway.

Take your pick and make your choice!

If you want to limit the charge in your Zoe, use the timer to charge for just long enough to get to 80% (or whatever level you need). If you want to charge to 100% and have the battery warm for when you set off, use the delayed charging and set it for a start time that means the battery will just be full when you're ready to go.
 

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Lithium in general doesn't like being too deeply discharged and gets stressed when fully charged. The fully charged stress state gets worse with rising temperature, think laptop battery. It sits full all the time in an elevated temperature as has the most appalling life.
The best thing you can do is to sit in this 30-80% sweet spot for everyday use. When u need the full range by all means use it but just not all the time if u can live like that.
This is not Renault or tesla rules it's general battery chemistry.
With the larger batteries getting fitted now this is easier to keep up.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
There is no evidence that keeping a Zoe at a lower charge level helps the battery.
The Zoe is nowhere near as harsh as Tesla on its batteries - energy output and charge rates are lower. It also doesn't let you use the full capacity of the battery to help protect it. It also has had active battery heating / cooling from the air con system from day one (unlike some other manufacturers).

On keeping plugged in, you can pre-condition a Zoe to get it ready to drive. Doing this using mains electricity will save battery capacity.

Zoe is designed to be simple and do the work for you.
Good point on the Zoe not being near as harsh on the battery as a Tesla might be. I know I can pre-condition and such, but it's kind of a big hassle to constantly have to figure out how much charge time it will take and remember to plug-out at 80%. Also if I want to use mostly renewable energy I have to charge in the night and then its quite annoying to have to plug-out at 03:00. It's kinda backwards of logic.. I should be able to set my departure-time and then it should start charging to meet 100% at departure. Indeed the Zoe gets the job done, but as they took time to create some of these features, I don't get why they didn't make them a little more useful.

The whole 100%/80% thing causes a lot of heat but not much light, unfortunately. My understanding (from Ewan McTurk's Plug Life channel on You Tube - he's a chemist in the battery business) is that charging the battery places increasing mechanical stress on it as it fills up. Now, given that most EVs have a buffer so you can't fill the battery to a physical 100% it's not clear if filling to that 100% actually causes problems. The precautionary principle says if you don't need that last 20% of range then don't fill the battery as you'll never have to find out if filling it to 100% causes a problem. On the other hand, if you need to fill it to 100% then just do it although minimising the time spent at 100% would be the next level of precaution. You may also like the approach of some on this site who take the stance that they will only own the car for a couple of years from new, so they'll treat the battery how they like as serious degradation is unlikely in only that space of time, and they have a good warranty anyway.

Take your pick and make your choice!

If you want to limit the charge in your Zoe, use the timer to charge for just long enough to get to 80% (or whatever level you need). If you want to charge to 100% and have the battery warm for when you set off, use the delayed charging and set it for a start time that means the battery will just be full when you're ready to go.
Good points on the usage of the battery. The problem about the degradation is the untransparency. First of all, if the battery never goes to the actual 100% of the battery, how to calculate it? (And why are they even allowed to sell cars with 52 kWh battery but only 46 usable? Like selling a car with 100 hp, but only 80 available?)

Don't get me wrong I like my Zoe and its a fine car, but the whole deal of monitoring my battery is damn hard. Also how would I ever get to know if my battery is degraded too much - afaik there are no companies in Denmark yet that checks batteries, so at the moment the carmanufactureres can just about claim w/e they want :)


Lithium in general doesn't like being too deeply discharged and gets stressed when fully charged. The fully charged stress state gets worse with rising temperature, think laptop battery. It sits full all the time in an elevated temperature as has the most appalling life.
The best thing you can do is to sit in this 30-80% sweet spot for everyday use. When u need the full range by all means use it but just not all the time if u can live like that.
This is not Renault or tesla rules it's general battery chemistry.
With the larger batteries getting fitted now this is easier to keep up.
Yes this is exactly my understanding of batteries, but thats where I think Renualt makes it too damn hard to preserve the battery in a proper way. Constantly have to calculate how much charge it would take to get to 80% and wake up in the night to plug it out, is NOT the way to get people into EV's.
If there was a "max charge"-setting it would be easy. Or even better a "charge-to-departure" so that it can charge in the night and hit exactly 80% (or 100%) when I want to leave in the morning.
 

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It sounds like u need a more intelligent charger. My ohme will charge to a schedule to x% by a certain time as required. It is aware of costs so if its cheaper at certain times it will use those eg economy 7, Go or Agile from octopus. Many other chargers do a similar thing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
It sounds like u need a more intelligent charger. My ohme will charge to a schedule to x% by a certain time as required. It is aware of costs so if its cheaper at certain times it will use those eg economy 7, Go or Agile from octopus. Many other chargers do a similar thing.
Sure that could help to solve some of the problems, but I already have a charger and not planning to buy a new. If the functions were in the car everybody could benefit from it, no matter if you use the chameleon charger (from Renault) or other "normal" charging options.
 

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What I don't understand is the "not having faith" part. By definition, that is not based on anything but, well, faith.

If history has leaned us anything, it is that we know of zero batteries that have been replaced because of degradation in the last 7 years (of course there have been defective cell repairs). Renault taking up the risk with the rental scheme is proof they believed in what they were doing. Most importantly, thermal management has been very good, despite the "oh but that can only be done with water cooling" crowd.

Of course we do not have a lot of data on the Ph2 (ZE50) battery most could be better because of battery heating and simply increased knowledge.

The battery management of the ZOE has battle proven itself, and other than other cars without any form of user interference.
 

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You are right tho in that the car isn't that intelligent when it comes to charging, setting a charge start time is as advanced as it gets 🙄 but I have to disagree with you on the battery front. A normal car is sold as say 100bhp. It will do that when new, but as time goes on that will wane. Also you won't see that at the wheels, you'll loose 15ish in the transmission. What I'm getting as is there are caviats to everything. It's a bit like the range u get, varies so much with the conditions around it. I do see all of these variability being an issue when more people start going electric, the masses will not be impressed.
 

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Sure that could help to solve some of the problems, but I already have a charger and not planning to buy a new. If the functions were in the car everybody could benefit from it, no matter if you use the chameleon charger (from Renault) or other "normal" charging options.
Incidentally u can get add ons to your charger, eg with the ohme u can buy it with a type 2 plug to go into your current charger. Octopus do a discount on these.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
What I don't understand is the "not having faith" part. By definition, that is not based on anything but, well, faith.

If history has leaned us anything, it is that we know of zero batteries that have been replaced because of degradation in the last 7 years (of course there have been defective cell repairs). Renault taking up the risk with the rental scheme is proof they believed in what they were doing. Most importantly, thermal management has been very good, despite the "oh but that can only be done with water cooling" crowd.

Of course we do not have a lot of data on the Ph2 (ZE50) battery most could be better because of battery heating and simply increased knowledge.

The battery management of the ZOE has battle proven itself, and other than other cars without any form of user interference.
True, the faith part is only based on my experience with the car these past months. I mean it works and drives well - but I have no idea whats going on in the car, because the information coming out is so limited. I too know of zero batteries that has been replaced, but I also don't know anyone who got their battery checked. But true that the battery management in the Zoe seems to work fine - I guess it just annoys me that the car is keeping me in the dark as to what is going on.... :D
 

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True, the faith part is only based on my experience with the car these past months. I mean it works and drives well - but I have no idea whats going on in the car, because the information coming out is so limited. I too know of zero batteries that has been replaced, but I also don't know anyone who got their battery checked. But true that the battery management in the Zoe seems to work fine - I guess it just annoys me that the car is keeping me in the dark as to what is going on.... :D
I recommend getting the canze app and a OBD2 dongle then you will get quite a lot of info from the car.
 
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U can also just ask Renault when u get it serviced. The car talks home every time its started and sends the battery soh back.
Still trying to get the dongle to work.... 🙄
 

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Good points on the usage of the battery. The problem about the degradation is the untransparency. First of all, if the battery never goes to the actual 100% of the battery, how to calculate it? (And why are they even allowed to sell cars with 52 kWh battery but only 46 usable? Like selling a car with 100 hp, but only 80 available?)

Yes this is exactly my understanding of batteries, but thats where I think Renualt makes it too damn hard to preserve the battery in a proper way. Constantly have to calculate how much charge it would take to get to 80% and wake up in the night to plug it out, is NOT the way to get people into EV's.
If there was a "max charge"-setting it would be easy. Or even better a "charge-to-departure" so that it can charge in the night and hit exactly 80% (or 100%) when I want to leave in the morning.
The ZW50 has 52kwh usable and the buffer is on top of that, sorry if I wasn't clear.

I agree it's hard to monitor battery health. I can't be bothered with the whole "buy a dongle and muck about with Canze" thing (sorry @yoh-there !). I plan to rely on my dealer and will ask them to tell me the State of Health when they service the car. I don't want to have to fret about my battery every day!

Regarding charge to departure, my solution was to create a Google sheet that calculates when to start charging to achieve a certain level of charge and I have that on my phone. Now I have an off peak tariff I can't do that, so I just calculate how long it will take to charge up to 80% (for example) and set the timer to start and end at times which give me that charge level.

This may be simpler to do in other cars (Tesla seems to have nice software), but after 6 months now I don't find it so bad :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
The ZW50 has 52kwh usable and the buffer is on top of that, sorry if I wasn't clear.

I agree it's hard to monitor battery health. I can't be bothered with the whole "buy a dongle and muck about with Canze" thing (sorry @yoh-there !). I plan to rely on my dealer and will ask them to tell me the State of Health when they service the car. I don't want to have to fret about my battery every day!

Regarding charge to departure, my solution was to create a Google sheet that calculates when to start charging to achieve a certain level of charge and I have that on my phone. Now I have an off peak tariff I can't do that, so I just calculate how long it will take to charge up to 80% (for example) and set the timer to start and end at times which give me that charge level.

This may be simpler to do in other cars (Tesla seems to have nice software), but after 6 months now I don't find it so bad :)
I saw Teslabjorns video about the Zoe usable battery and he only got it to 42,5 kWh usable battery :O

I could calculate a sheet like that, but the problem is if I want to charge from 40% -> 80% and hit that 80% at departure-time (so the battery is already warm after charging) i have to wake up in the middle of the night. And generally its annoying when charging in the night (for the environment).
 

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I saw Teslabjorns video about the Zoe usable battery and he only got it to 42,5 kWh usable battery :O

I could calculate a sheet like that, but the problem is if I want to charge from 40% -> 80% and hit that 80% at departure-time (so the battery is already warm after charging) i have to wake up in the middle of the night. And generally its annoying when charging in the night (for the environment).
Wow, I can't account for that figure. It seems far too low. Is it for ZE50, maybe it was a ZE40? Acutally - do you have a ZE40 or a ZE50? That might explain some of the strangeness - I have a ZE50.

My miles per kWh is consistent with a 52kwh usable battery and I've seen no reason to doubt Renault's figure.

For starting your charge, does the charge timer not work for you? I set mine to come on at 9pm and finish at 11pm for example. The Zoe has 3 charging methods:
1. Immediate
2. Postponed (set start charging time)
3. Timed (set start and end charging times)

When you say annoying for the environment, do you mean the car is noisy when charging or as in CO2 emissions?
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Wow, I can't account for that figure. It seems far too low. Is it for ZE50, maybe it was a ZE40? Acutally - do you have a ZE40 or a ZE50? That might explain some of the strangeness - I have a ZE50.

My miles per kWh is consistent with a 52kwh usable battery and I've seen no reason to doubt Renault's figure.

For starting your charge, does the charge timer not work for you? I set mine to come on at 9pm and finish at 11pm for example. The Zoe has 3 charging methods:
1. Immediate
2. Postponed (set start charging time)
3. Timed (set start and end charging times)

When you say annoying for the environment, do you mean the car is noisy when charging or as in CO2 emissions?
I have a ZE50, september '20 build.

Ah, that might solve some of my problems if I can get the "3. Timed (set start and end charging times)" to work. I tried to get the 2. to work multiple times in december but kinda gave up in the end. That way I should be able to at least have it charging in the night, though i will still have to do tons of calculations each time if I wanna hit 80% at some exact times. But this could be enough if I make it work.
Do you do it from the app or from the car, or both?

Ye sorry I meant CO2-emissions. Atleast the power-mix I get here - i might aswell be burning gasoline if I charged during the evening when everybody is cooking. I want to only charge in the night :)
 

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I have a ZE50, september '20 build.

Ah, that might solve some of my problems if I can get the "3. Timed (set start and end charging times)" to work. I tried to get the 2. to work multiple times in december but kinda gave up in the end. That way I should be able to at least have it charging in the night, though i will still have to do tons of calculations each time if I wanna hit 80% at some exact times. But this could be enough if I make it work.
Do you do it from the app or from the car, or both?

Ye sorry I meant CO2-emissions. Atleast the power-mix I get here - i might aswell be burning gasoline if I charged during the evening when everybody is cooking. I want to only charge in the night :)
OK! Good luck getting the timed charging to work. It occasionally does not work for me, but has been fairly reliable since the car was fixed by the garage (the first ZE50s all had a defective timer system and preconditioning also would not work). I only set it in the car as I don't really trust the app, but others have said the app is OK for them.

The only downside to charging at night is when the timer fails or the charger trips (this last has happened to me 2 or 3 times so far) and you don't have enough charge for your next day's journey. My solution for that was to choose an energy tariff where the off-peak rate starts at 8:30pm which is early enough that I know if the charging works or not! It saved me last night as the timer failed to start the charge for some unknown reason.
 

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OK! Good luck getting the timed charging to work. It occasionally does not work for me, but has been fairly reliable since the car was fixed by the garage (the first ZE50s all had a defective timer system and preconditioning also would not work). I only set it in the car as I don't really trust the app, but others have said the app is OK for them.

The only downside to charging at night is when the timer fails or the charger trips (this last has happened to me 2 or 3 times so far) and you don't have enough charge for your next day's journey. My solution for that was to choose an energy tariff where the off-peak rate starts at 8:30pm which is early enough that I know if the charging works or not! It saved me last night as the timer failed to start the charge for some unknown reason.
That made sense for me too as u get your evening usage in cheap rate too.
 
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