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Kia E Niro 4
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What car are you driving? seems like the wrong choice for your usage pattern, you don't buy a Smart car if you need to carry four suitcases and a large dog
 

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'18 Zoe ZE 40 R110 + '21 VW ID.4 1st
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I do wonder if the OP with his strange solution to a present problem is a Member of Parliament, or aspires to be one? Certainly he reasons like an M.P.
The times that he posts don't really add up to him being in the UK at all (unless of course he works nights and posts on forums at 1-3:00 AM?). I'd guess it is more likely he is in the US but put a UK flag on his profile to better fit in here... (Maybe I am too suspicious...)
 

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The times that he posts don't really add up to him being in the UK at all (unless of course he works nights and posts on forums at 1-3:00 AM?). I'd guess it is more likely he is in the US but put a UK flag on his profile to better fit in here... (Maybe I am too suspicious...)
Leeds (according to the petition)
 

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Good idea, let's get 5 times the required lithium and cobalt and what have you from the ground and haul tonnes of batteries around the country on a daily basis just so someone doesn't have to spend 30 minutes at a rapid charger.
Aside from all the other reasons others have already put forward, lack of raw materials (and money) to have lots of spare batteries sitting around at swapping stations is also a non-starter.

Battery production is already the major bottleneck in ramping up EV production and will be for years to come - why waste much of that battery production supply chain filling up battery swapping station shelves with batteries which could have gone into cars instead ? Madness.
 

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It is of course a dumb idea to try implement this with the existing designs. Swappable battery cells will only work if it is standardised and can be swapped by ourselves, which is what the petition is about (asking the EV suppliers to work together and research how this can be implemented).
Huh ? You want to personally swap 200-400Kg worth of cells in and out of your car ? Wouldn't it be easier to just plug it in for half an hour ? ;)
 

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On order. 62kWh Leaf e+Tekna.
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So do those people who think it ought to be feasible to let anyone swap battery cells themselves realise that quite apart from the weight of the battery pack, even allowing for a re-design to allow easier cell swapping, there is the small matter that a battery pack has a 400 volt DC potential??? Perhaps they think it's only a bigger 12 volt car battery? As a retired Electrician, during my working life I've on occasion come across the aftermath of folks attempts at electrical DIY, and I'm sure the likes of Jeremy Harris and other either current (pardon the pun!) or retired tradesmen on this forum will doubtless say the same. It would seem that there is a fair cross-section of society that don't see any danger in dabbling with something they know zilch about, that can neither be seen or smelt but will certainly bite you and hard if you don't know exactly what you are doing. People who think "it's only 2 wires, how hard can it be" sometimes find out the hard way, and if 240 volts AC doesn't daunt them, if they get across 400 volts DC then they'll certainly know about it and it's much harder to break free from a DC voltage. Do these folks imagine it would be as simple as changing a couple of Duracells in a torch??? Complete madness!
Keith.
 

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Don't understand majority of comments on here discussing battery swapping as if it's some sort of potential solution to be developed. It's been developed many years ago, tried and tested and in regular daily use by many thousands of drivers. They've completed over 4 million battery swaps for goodness sake, yes, four million. Yet comments above are somehow suggesting how such a system might be designed!? See here for a recent update China: NIO Reports 4 Millionth EV Battery Swap

In fact Shell recently agreed to install 100 swap stations at it's fuel stations in China by 2025 and a pilot program in Europe.
 

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Don't understand majority of comments on here discussing battery swapping as if it's some sort of potential solution to be developed. It's been developed many years ago, tried and tested and in regular daily use by many thousands of drivers. They've completed over 4 million battery swaps for goodness sake, yes, four million. Yet comments above are somehow suggesting how such a system might be designed!? See here for a recent update China: NIO Reports 4 Millionth EV Battery Swap

In fact Shell recently agreed to install 100 swap stations at it's fuel stations in China by 2025 and a pilot program in Europe.
Agreed. I'm quite surprised as to how many haven't heard about this.

The petition in question is purely for manufacturers to talk about a universal battery system so that these charging and replacement services can be more widespread. I think it's a fantastic idea.
 

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Picture the scene.

It's dark, it's raining, it's winter and it's freezing cold outside. I've just driven 150 miles up the M1 and am a little tired and have to now get out in the dark, crawl around under or alongside my wet, dripping, dirty car. Find a plug socket or two, disconnect them, somehow lift either the car above the batteries or the batteries from under the car - presumably you have provided some method of winching, lifting or conveying 400kg of batteries - and then fit the new ones in. All while keeping myself clean and dry and not electrocuting myself in the process. All this time I still need the facilities and a warming coffee.

Alternatively, I could just take a single plug that's already been provided for me, connect it to a nice clean dry socket that has been designed by an engineer to accommodate said plug, and then go inside for a nice refreshing coffee and freshen myself up for 30 minutes, about as long as it's going to take me to faff around doing the above.

I don't know about you but I know what I would rather chose to do.

Oh and there's also the fact I like the car my manufacturer designed to their own standards, design, shape, performance and range. If you standardise batteries and how they are fitted, you standardise cars so they will all be exactly the same - boring.
 

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Picture the scene.

It's dark, it's raining, it's winter and it's freezing cold outside. I've just driven 150 miles up the M1 and am a little tired and have to now get out in the dark, crawl around under or alongside my wet, dripping, dirty car. Find a plug socket or two, disconnect them, somehow lift either the car above the batteries or the batteries from under the car - presumably you have provided some method of winching, lifting or conveying 400kg of batteries - and then fit the new ones in. All while keeping myself clean and dry and not electrocuting myself in the process. All this time I still need the facilities and a warming coffee.

Alternatively, I could just take a single plug socket that's already been provided for me, connect it to a nice clean dry socket that has been designed by an engineer to accommodate said plug socket and then go inside for a nice refreshing coffee and freshen myself up for 30 minutes, about as long as it's going to take me to faff around doing the above.

I don't know about you but I know what I would rather chose to do.
The former would never happen, it would be fully automated just like the NIO service..

 

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Kia e-Niro MY20 64 kWh - Gravity Blue
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I cannot drive my EV to pick up my daughter from university as the battery will be dry when I get there, and it will take 7 hours to recharge it enough to come back, or many 30 min stops along the way...
Would you care to support this argument with measurable data such as:
  • distance to your daughter's university from your home
  • make and model of your EV
  • climatological circumstances
  • number and type of chargers en route

To give you an example: in my EV (Kia e-Niro) I could pick up my imaginary daughter at a 275 km distance only having to do one plm 30 minutes' rapid charge (75 kW) stop on the way back to comfortably make it home. Or I could charge just before I picked her up so we could do the return trip without interruptions. Mind you, that would be roughly 6 hours of driving, so I guess more stops would be warranted....
 

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The former would never happen, it would be fully automated just like the NIO service..
I still don't want to do it, I still don't have range anxiety, I still want the new batteries I bought with my new car (in part because a major part of the warranty I bought with it relates to the batteries) and I still don't want a standard car with a different badge, which is what you would end up with. The manufacturers also won't want to do it because their Intellectual Property will be compromised.

All because it's apparently too difficult to plug a car in to a charging socket. I don't have any difficulty plugging a fuel pump into an ICE so I'm sure I can manage this too.

This is a solution looking for a problem.
 

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Agreed. I'm quite surprised as to how many haven't heard about this.

The petition in question is purely for manufacturers to talk about a universal battery system so that these charging and replacement services can be more widespread. I think it's a fantastic idea.
Yes the Nio system exists and is used. But is it more useful/practical than rapid charging infrastructure? Why? How much practical time saving does it provide for each consumer?

Does any advantage it may have over rapid chargers carry across, from a high-density Chinese city to other markets such as UK, EU and US? What is the impact on the capital and operational investment needed to provide nation-scale supporting infrastructure?

Does it provide sufficient advantages to warrant the an industry standard battery form factor (physical, electrical and cooling interfaces) - something which the market has so far decided is not worth having - and thus slowing the pace of innovation in battery form factors (pouch, 4680), cooling designs, vehicle packaging (skateboards, structural, foot cubbies) etc.?
 

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For all the smart people here, thanks for the feedback and I certainly have learned a few things I didn't know before.
Perhaps I should have explained that I'm not suggesting a technical solution here. The petition is asking car manufacturers and governments to pull together their brains to explore if this is possible, because if it works it can be a game changer. If it turns out to be infeasible with current technology, fair enough.
The current EV and charging regime is not practical at the moment. I can't use my EV to pick up my daughter from university due to the distance. I don't know if there is still much room in the technology to increase battery capacity or reduce charging time, thus the petition to the experts to explore a different approach.
If you want to support this, please help to sign the petition. If not, just continue making your 30 min stops...
30 minute stops aren't usually an issue. You should break up long journeys this way anyway. Go to the loo, have a bit to eat. Sorted.

I'd love to understand your travel plans in detail - I'm sure people on here could advise you of a better strategy.
Draining the battery completely isn't a great idea if you want to be time efficient.
 

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It is of course a dumb idea to try implement this with the existing designs. Swappable battery cells will only work if it is standardised and can be swapped by ourselves, which is what the petition is about (asking the EV suppliers to work together and research how this can be implemented).
But how on earth do you think the cars could be designed with swappable battery packs?

The design of modern EVs puts them low down in the floor of the chassis for a reason; and you want to change that to place them far higher leading to vehicle instability and encroaching on passenger space - and all for what? The odd person who doesn't plan their journey.

And as for the packs being swapped "by ourselves" - hah. Can you lift a 50kg battery pack unassisted and place it accurately in the car without damaging it, can your 80 year granny driving your EV?

And if you are going to suggest swapping out individual cells - get real. People can't even put a set of AAs into their remote control correctly, let alone hundreds of individual cells when it is pissing down with rain and minus five outside.
 

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Agreed. I'm quite surprised as to how many haven't heard about this.

The petition in question is purely for manufacturers to talk about a universal battery system so that these charging and replacement services can be more widespread. I think it's a fantastic idea.
Maybe all Automakers could gettogether to make this universal, boring utilitarian platform to a government mandated design, all identical, with swappable batteries, and call it the "plebmobile" . Those that want it can pay for all the changing stations via the cost of their battery rental, and the rest of us can "own" our built in batteries over a great many interesting models, and know the plebmobile owners wont be clogging up our rapid chargers, as they must be restricted to 7kw - 11kw AC on board charging only, DC charging wont be fitted as they dont need it, they go and have a battery swap.

Happy to go through a VHS vs Betamax style war and see which wins out.
 

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Yeah, NIO have battery swap stations for NIO vehicles.

For any car though? Can’t see it happening anywhere else to be honest. Or, will we see different manufacturers offering the battery swap service at the dealer network, they’ll be looking for revenue streams going forward.

I get the petition is trying to enforce some kind of universal battery swap standard. Where is the incentive for anybody to invest in such a scheme though? Don’t expect Governments to fund it, ot would be grants at most and for private enterprise to put their shoulder behind it there would need to the prospect of making a lot of money down the line, and competing with home and public charging with your own battery I don’t see it breaking through.

I’m afraid the standard battery swap ship has sailed and manufacturers are coalescing around their own designs and the CCS connector.

It won’t be long before charge rates and availability is right up there, and long before any such battery swap standard is agreed and any infrastructure is built.
 

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Kia Soul EV 2020 64KWh
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This of course will only work if the design allows us to replace the battery cells ourselves. The engineers can work this out. If there's a will there's a way.
So your answer is, rather than charge your battery en route, to take a spare set of batteries, so you can swap them out?

You do know these are not AA batteries don't you? You know that you are not replacing the battery in your remote control?

I am not convinced because your petition picture shows a bloke holding up a set of duracells.

These are not batteries that you can put a spare set of in the glovebox. We are not even talking about the 12v battery that's under your bonnet. They weigh half a ton. How on earth are you planning to swap them out yourself in the arse end of a motorway service station car park? I'd love to know.

This whole suggestion has rapidly moved on from undesirable to just ridiculous. Despite owning an EV, your appear, I am afraid, to know zero about the technology involved and are just engaging in blue sky wishful thinking with no basis in reality, now or in the future. Despite what you might hope for, batteries will never be small enough to put in your glovebox and swap out yourself.

I would quite like a time capsule that allows me to get to Cornwall without the 6 hours of driving. I could start a petition about that. Not going to happen though.
 
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