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VW ID.3 1st Edition & Tesla M3 LR
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It was predicted that CPU speeds will double every 2 years (Moore's Law), it's plateaued a couple of years ago. We are now joining up smaller, cheaper computers as an alternative means to increase processing power.
There is a limit to everything regardless of what people are promising. This also applies to battery charging technology.
You seem to know a little about a lot of things, but again I fear you’re wrong here as well. Moore’s law was about transistor numbers doubling, or chip densities, not CPU speed.

CPU speeds are less important now because CPUs went multi threaded years ago, and they are still growing in performance hugely year on year.

There’s an idea for a petition, ask if Government will force manufacturers to implement double headed CCS chargers, I mean two is better than one, right?!

The last near 500 mile journey I did took me 10.5 hours, including 3 charging stops (1 x 20 and 2 x 30 minutes).

That fits how I like to do such a journey already, it already works.

My car would effectively need 2.5 packs (a 58kWh battery on the ID.3) so I would have needed to stop twice for a battery swap if that was instead of rapid charging. Let’s assume a battery swap took 15 mins even, doing that twice would be 30 mins, and I’d have saved 50 mins over the entire 500 mile journey.

I’d probably have had to stop a third time anyway for a comfort break, so all of a sudden there isn’t much of a time advantage at all.

Good luck!
 

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Only thing I can imagine is the OP has a recent Zoe without rapid charge capability. Even then, on a 22KW charge point a full charge takes under 3 hours. Granted there are not as many three phase AC point available in England as in some places… but still. Maybe they’re always plugging into the wrong socket or haven’t got a three phase cable.
In an earlier response he has said his EV is a DS 3, which is a very new model - definitely has CCS.

Sent from my SM-A526B using Tapatalk
 

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Kia e-Niro 2 LR, Seat Mii
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I'm sceptical about battery swapping, but Nio aren't the only one doing it. New video on the Transport Evolved channel on YouTube:
Dismissive Of Battery Swapping? Here Are Ample Reasons Not To Be.
There's not the slightest suggestion that the EV owner would do it themselves, of course. That was never going to fly.
Also this is a new venture and I'm not sure they've even installed anything yet...
 

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I'm sceptical about battery swapping, but Nio aren't the only one doing it. New video on the Transport Evolved channel on YouTube:
Dismissive Of Battery Swapping? Here Are Ample Reasons Not To Be.
There's not the slightest suggestion that the EV owner would do it themselves, of course. That was never going to fly.
Also this is a new venture and I'm not sure they've even installed anything yet...
One of the problems with battery swapping is that it is trying to solve a problem that will largely go away by the time it could be implemented at scale. (The same could be said of Hydrogen fuelled cars, with their "filling rate advantage" over BEV's)

As Steve Jobs once said you don't skate to where the hockey puck is now, you skate to where it will be when you get there. This applies to any technology with long lead times whether it be game development, car/battery design etc. You can't just look at what's available now and say you have a better solution because by the time you spend those years putting your "better" solution into practice the need for it has passed because the rest of the world moved on. You need to see if your solution still makes sense by the time you could implement it at scale.

Batteries are getting larger in capacity, cheaper to make, lighter and more compact and charging speeds are going up dramatically as high powered chargers (and batteries that can take advantage of them) come online. If you follow the current trend lines to their logical conclusion there will be a point in the not too distant future (maybe 5 years from now ? Just a guess) where range before needing a charge will be long enough and charging times during a stop will be short enough that the "appeal" of a battery swap or filling a Hydrogen fuelled car will go away, and battery swapping will be just another dead end that fell by the wayside. I wouldn't want to be an investor that put money into a technology which will ultimately fail and become obsolete.
 

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I can't see swappable battery packs solving anything, other than maybe in some highly specific case. What would be useful would be for the manufacturers to standardise the packs used within the batteries all evs so that if a traction battery had to be repaired eg after minor damage, it would not necessitate having to dismantle half of the car to get to it.
 

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The former would never happen, it would be fully automated just like the NIO service..
Just imagine phoning the helpline when this goes wrong on a cold and wet evening.

Realistically "fully automated" always needs humans. Like the employee in Tescos helping at the self-serve tills. And employing people is expensive - much more expensive in Europe than in China.

Use this "fully automated" service and you'll be paying for the electricity, a portion of the capital investment in the equipment, a portion of the capital investment in the spare batteries and the salaries of the people in attendance. Cold hard economics will always make it cost many multiples of a reliable rapid charger.
 

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2018 Nissan Leaf 40kWh Tekna - love it
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It is of course a dumb idea to try implement this with the existing designs. Swappable battery cells will only work if it is standardised and can be swapped by ourselves, which is what the petition is about (asking the EV suppliers to work together and research how this can be implemented).
What on earth is the point of a petition? The only thing that might encourage swappable batteries is if there is a demand from customers and manufacturers can make good profits. So for that reason, its not going to happen. We have now a good selection of EVs to cover many needs but making up problems like this is just a feeble excuse not to get one.👎
 

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2018 Nissan Leaf 40kWh Tekna - love it
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Agreed. I'm quite surprised as to how many haven't heard about this.

The petition in question is purely for manufacturers to talk about a universal battery system so that these charging and replacement services can be more widespread. I think it's a fantastic idea.
Everyone's heard about it. Do you think manufacturers will pay one jot of notice to any sort of petition related to cars?
 

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At the moment, a typical process, to swap a modern EV's battery pack, you'll need to:

1. Get vehicle on ramp
2. Remove under-tray panels.
3. Make note of battery serial numbers, state of charge, and state of battery balance.
4. Drain vehicles air-con / coolant loops.
5. Support battery pack on appropriate carrier
6. Isolate HV disconnect
7. Remove retaining bolts
8. Disconnect LV signalling cabling
9. Disconnect HV cabling
10. Remove coolant loops / air-con ducting.
11. Lower battery pack from vehicle / raise vehicle from pack.
12. Move exhausted battery pack to some magical charging rack
13. Move fully-charged equivalent battery pack from storage (must be recently charged) into position under vehicle
14. Raise pack into position
15. Connect coolant loops / air con ducting
16. Refill air-con / coolant loops.
17. Connect HV cabling
18 Connect LV signalling cabling
19. Re-instate HV disconnect
20. refit retaining bolts
21. Update vehicles ECUs with specification of the new battery pack - very vehicle-specific, so that the dashboard can give appropriate range estimates based on the history and state-of-health of the new battery pack.
22. Re-fit under-tray panels.
23. Get vehicle off ramp.

And then you've got to charge up the battery packs that you've got removed, which will require either a massive amount of (automated?) storage space to store mostly charged packs (you don't want to store battery packs for longer than necessary at full charge), or you're going to need a good powerful electrical feed and bank of chargers.

So far, the only companies who have attempted this have started off by trying to standardise the battery pack design by working with vehicle manufacturers, or have been vehicle manufacturers. The battery packs that would fit in something the size of a Fiat 500 won't be any good in a big vehicle the size of an SUV tank or transit van, or vice-versa.
 

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1. Get vehicle on ramp
2. Remove under-tray panels.
3. Make note of battery serial numbers, state of charge, and state of battery balance.
4. Drain vehicles air-con / coolant loops.
5. Support battery pack on appropriate carrier
6. Isolate HV disconnect
7. Remove retaining bolts
8. Disconnect LV signalling cabling
9. Disconnect HV cabling
10. Remove coolant loops / air-con ducting.
11. Lower battery pack from vehicle / raise vehicle from pack.
12. Move exhausted battery pack to some magical charging rack
13. Move fully-charged equivalent battery pack from storage (must be recently charged) into position under vehicle
14. Raise pack into position
15. Connect coolant loops / air con ducting
16. Refill air-con / coolant loops.
17. Connect HV cabling
18 Connect LV signalling cabling
19. Re-instate HV disconnect
20. refit retaining bolts
21. Update vehicles ECUs with specification of the new battery pack - very vehicle-specific, so that the dashboard can give appropriate range estimates based on the history and state-of-health of the new battery pack.
22. Re-fit under-tray panels.
23. Get vehicle off ramp.
No problem at all for the average car driver or battery swap attendant, right ?! And they'll give your window a squeegee at the same time. :ROFLMAO:

As someone who has actually done all the above on his driveway, (well, apart from the coolant stuff as it was a Peugeot Ion with air cooled battery, so slightly simpler) I can't help but smile with some slight frustration every time someone re-discovers the idea of battery swap as the miracle solution to battery charging times in EV's. :)

After all battery swaps are common on power tools and used to be for phones, laptops etc until Apple arrived on the scene. To the lay person it makes sense. But it's a completely different ball game with a car from a scale and complexity perspective, that's before you even get anywhere near all the legal liability issues. (You swap your battery at a swap station now you have 70% of the full charge range you had before or the battery catches fire in your garage because it's been abused in previous cars. Who's to blame ? How is the resale value of your car affected if you never get your original battery back ? etc...)

It's really just a lot of wasted time effort and money that could be put into simply making better batteries with more range that charge faster and installing a much better charging infrastructure.

For electric bicycles, mopeds etc where a standardised battery could be changed in a similar fashion to a power tool ? Absolutely. Cars ? No. I guarantee all the companies experimenting with this today for normal privately owned passenger cars will have given up within a few years. It's just bonkers.
 

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DS3 was, sadly, a bad choice of car. Not the OP's fault, it just seems to have turned out that PSA EVs are managing really bad efficiencies, especially at motorway speeds. He could have bought an Ionic 38 kWh like mine. Which managed 4.2 m/kWh doing 100 mile trip yesterday after dark at temps between 0 and 2C on dry roads. First 85 miles was 4.1 m/kWh on A34 & M40 at genuine 60-62 mph, last 15 was 50 mph A road which raised me to 4.2 m/kWh. So a 160 mile range, more if I had sheltered behind lorries. At 10C temps I'm getting 4.7 m/kwh. Or an ID.3 with 54 kWh would do even better, and much faster Rapid charging.
 

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DS3 was, sadly, a bad choice of car. Not the OP's fault, it just seems to have turned out that PSA EVs are managing really bad efficiencies, especially at motorway speeds. He could have bought an Ionic 38 kWh like mine. Which managed 4.2 m/kWh doing 100 mile trip yesterday after dark at temps between 0 and 2C on dry roads. First 85 miles was 4.1 m/kWh on A34 & M40 at genuine 60-62 mph, last 15 was 50 mph A road which raised me to 4.2 m/kWh. So a 160 mile range, more if I had sheltered behind lorries. At 10C temps I'm getting 4.7 m/kwh. Or an ID.3 with 54 kWh would do even better, and much faster Rapid charging.

However, @charliecharlie seems not to understand that his DS3 can charge at up to 100 kW, and seems to be under the misapprehension that it can only charge at a maximum of 7 kW. My guess is that he just hasn't realised that his car has a CCS connector and can be rapid charged on a trip.
 

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Not carrying them in the boot but swap them for fully charged ones stored at service stops.
How about an optional trailer with battery pack, and a standardised connector? For a long (motorway) journey pick up a trailer with a charged battery at the first services, swap if necessary en-route, and drop off at the last motorway services. By discharging the trailer battery in priority to the car battery, you can be leaving the motorway with a fully charged battery ready to complete your journey. OK, it adds to the weight and increases the consumed Wh/mile, but may answer the OP's problem if he cannot get to grips with (or afford the time for) CCS charging.
 

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I know the point of the OP was about range anxiety but there’s also an environmental angle to making batteries easily swappable, in time if your battery is damaged or no longer holding a reasonable charge an original replacement may not be obtainable or be cost effective so the whole car gets scrapped. A standardised and therefore lower cost battery replacement would mean the car could continue to have a useful life and as the cost to the environment of repairing a car is lower than the cost of building a new one there is added benefit, the present day, disposable, throw-away attitude society has to everything can’t be allowed to continue. Easily replaced ev batteries would be the equivalent of having an engine pack up in a twenty year old ICE car and getting a replacement from a scrap car fitted, something which has often allowed less well-off owners in particular to keep on the road.
 

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Kia e-Niro 2 LR, Seat Mii
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I know the point of the OP was about range anxiety but there’s also an environmental angle to making batteries easily swappable, in time if your battery is damaged or no longer holding a reasonable charge an original replacement may not be obtainable or be cost effective so the whole car gets scrapped. A standardised and therefore lower cost battery replacement would mean the car could continue to have a useful life and as the cost to the environment of repairing a car is lower than the cost of building a new one there is added benefit, the present day, disposable, throw-away attitude society has to everything can’t be allowed to continue. Easily replaced ev batteries would be the equivalent of having an engine pack up in a twenty year old ICE car and getting a replacement from a scrap car fitted, something which has often allowed less well-off owners in particular to keep on the road.
Replacing the battery in current models of EV isn't all that hard to do in the context of swapping out a faulty one for a new one - certainly much less complicated than a petrol/diesel engine swap. Some EV makers are unwilling to do this, but making batteries standardized across different makes is not necessary to make it possible.
 

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It's 152 miles (243 km) each way. My EV is a DS3, with a theoretical range of 180 miles but in reality it would barely make one way of the journey on full charge. It takes 7-8 hours to fully charge from near empty using a 7kw charger.
You need a fast charger in the car to take advantage of fast charging posts. It's possible to fit a 11kw charger in mine but the dealer advised against it saying the home charging time (with a standard 7kw home charger) would increase to over 10 hours from empty (I don't know why but have gone with their advice).
Why would you use 7kw AC when you can use ccs? That's the sort of thing a journalist would do to try and prove EV's were a waste of time. I'm doing a similar trip to pick my daughter up from uni soon, Newcastle and back in a day, 475 miles in total in my ID3, a bit more range than your DS3, yes it will be a long day but overall with planning the comfort stops I will need any with charging I doubt it's going to take much more than a hour longer than it would have done in my old diesel.
 

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WAUOTE="Tooks, post: 3133761, member: 6652"]
I don’t know, maybe the switching what we do now for something less convenient and more effort?
[/QUOTE]
 

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Why would you use 7kw AC when you can use ccs? That's the sort of thing a journalist would do to try and prove EV's were a waste of time. I'm doing a similar trip to pick my daughter up from uni soon, Newcastle and back in a day, 475 miles in total in my ID3, a bit more range than your DS3, yes it will be a long day but overall with planning the comfort stops I will need any with charging I doubt it's going to take much more than a hour longer than it would have done in my old diesel.

Maybe @charliecharlie is really a petrol head journo trying to do the usual thing of putting down EVs with fake information.

I find it hard that anyone can buy a car that has a 100 kW CCS charging capability, and even has conversations with a dealer about fitting a three phase AC charger, without understanding how rapid charging works. It beggars belief that someone goes to the trouble of starting a pointless petition and yet is incapable of reading the car's manual.
 

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Guess I'll pile on this with everyone else.

Given the problems certain car makers are having with batteries prone to catch fire, do we really want to create a situation where - if a battery fire starts - you have a liability argument between the car manufacturer, the battery manufacturer, the battery swap company and the car owners insurance?

Car manufacturer blames the batteries since your using batteries other than the ones they supplied.

Battery swap company blames either the car manufacturer (car must have used the batteries wrong) or the battery manufacturer (must have supplied defective batteries)

Battery manufacturer claims their batteries met their technical specification and blames battery swap company for installing them wrong.

Driver's insurance company doesn't care as long as they are not the one footing the bill, but they'll increase the premium for the driver regardless.

Yeah - that sounds like a great idea.

Not to mention that the battery pack is still a substantive part of the car, who wants to pay £30K+ for a car with brand new £10k battery only to end up with a knackered seven year old battery worth £500 the first battery swap they do.

It's nonsense.
 
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