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My wife is looking to change her ICE to an EV and the i-Miev is on the short list. I've managed to do a bit of research so I have most answers but I was wondering if someone can help with the questions below. Some of them I think I know the answer but I could do with confirmation:
  1. Does it have a heated steering wheel? (looks like it doesn't)
  2. Does it have heated seats? (looks like a simple on/off for front seats only)
  3. Heated steering wheel?
  4. Does it have remote heating? (yes but via some weird remote control device, no smartphone app)
  5. Does it have cruise control?
  6. Does it have any battery thermal management?
  7. Does it have a battery heat gauge?
  8. Does it have a user accessible SOH display?
  9. Does it have anything equivalent to LeafSpy app? (diagnostic app, via wireless OBD port)
  10. Can a standard sized DIN (or double DIN) stereo be easily fitted?
  11. How many successive rapid charging sessions can it do? i.e. what's the approx maximum distance it can do before batteries need to cool down?
Thanks for your help in advance
 

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My wife is looking to change her ICE to an EV and the i-Miev is on the short list. I've managed to do a bit of research so I have most answers but I was wondering if someone can help with the questions below. Some of them I think I know the answer but I could do with confirmation:
  1. Does it have a heated steering wheel? (looks like it doesn't) NO
  2. Does it have heated seats? (looks like a simple on/off for front seats only) DEPENDS - Some yes, some no
  3. Heated steering wheel? See question 1.
  4. Does it have remote heating? (yes but via some weird remote control device, no smartphone app) Its Not Weird, its just a remote control just like your garage door opener which means you are not worried about Mitsubishi (Nissan, BMW, Hyundai etc) charging you for the service or shutting it down
  5. Does it have cruise control? NO
  6. Does it have any battery thermal management? NO, except it has blown air and blown refrigerated air for rapid cooling (above 20 and 30 degrees approx. respectively)
  7. Does it have a battery heat gauge? No but if you want to know, CANION Android APP and others plus OBD2 Bluetooth Dongle can provide data
  8. Does it have a user accessible SOH display? It has a "Fuel Gauge" which gives a graphical display of SOH
  9. Does it have anything equivalent to LeafSpy app? (diagnostic app, via wireless OBD port) See answer to 7
  10. Can a standard sized DIN (or double DIN) stereo be easily fitted?
  11. How many successive rapid charging sessions can it do? i.e. what's the approx maximum distance it can do before batteries need to cool down? Batteries Rapid Charging is cooled when required by Blown Refrigerated Air. Battery Thermal Management in UK conditions will never be the limit to Rapid charging. The real Limit will simply be time....
Thanks for your help in advance
Not withstanding that good condition both car and battery iMievs will be hard to find in the UK (Mitsubishi effectively stopped selling them in 2015) I've replied on some of the above questions above.
 

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My wife is looking to change her ICE to an EV and the i-Miev is on the short list. I've managed to do a bit of research so I have most answers but I was wondering if someone can help with the questions below. Some of them I think I know the answer but I could do with confirmation:
I'm going to assume you're asking about UK spec i-Miev's, not US... and my personal experience is with the Ion, which has some spec level differences to the i-Miev...
Does it have a heated steering wheel? (looks like it doesn't)
Not to my knowledge
Does it have heated seats? (looks like a simple on/off for front seats only)
It's an optional extra - if you have it there is a switch low down on the middle console. If the switch is blanked off (like mine) you don't have it. I think it's drivers seat only when you do have it. I've added after market heated seat covers to both front seats on my car and it really makes a difference to comfort and how much you need to use the very power hungry heater.
Does it have remote heating? (yes but via some weird remote control device, no smartphone app)
In theory models after 2012 or later have it as a new purchase option using a funny remote control thing that goes on the keyring. Common in the US version but to my knowledge rare in UK spec. So far nobody on any of the forums I'm on has fessed up to actually having this option in their UK i-Miev/Ion/C-Zero. So buying second hand you're unlikely to find it.
Does it have cruise control?
Nope, but I have seen a 3rd party CanBus connected kit for around £150 that purports to add cruise control and at least one person using it. I've toyed with the idea but I don't have a spare £150 for a "frivilous" upgrade like this. :)
Does it have any battery thermal management?
During driving and Level 2 charging - no.

During Chademo rapid charging, yes - forced air cooling using the A/C system. If the cells are above 20C during rapid charging ambient air is blown through the pack. if the cells are above 30C the aircon engages to chill the air as well. Below 20C there is no cooling during charging. The system tries to keep the cells between 20-30C while rapid charging which is the optimal temperature range for charging speed and battery longevity. Below about 12C (cell temperature not ambient) the peak rapid charge rate halves to about 22kW, so rapid charging in sub zero conditions can be quite slow - like many other EV's.
Does it have a battery heat gauge?
Nope. Battery temperature can be measured by apps like Canion however.
Does it have a user accessible SOH display?
Nope. Battery SoH can be determined very quickly with an app like Canion however which will report battery Ah capacity. SoH = 100 * (Ah / 45.8)
Does it have anything equivalent to LeafSpy app? (diagnostic app, via wireless OBD port)
Yes - Canion, which is an Android only app and requires a good quality STN11xx based adaptor like the OBDLink LX. (Cheap ELM327 adaptors will not work) This is what I use. The app is occasionally flakey, losing the connection however the data it provides is invaluable.
Can a standard sized DIN (or double DIN) stereo be easily fitted?
Depends what car you have - the PSA versions of the car only seem to ship with single DIN mounts while some of the i-Miev's came with dual DIN mounts. On mine it looks like you could fit a standard DIN radio however the standard bluetooth radio in the Ion is pretty decent. Can't speak for the radio's in the i-mievs.
How many successive rapid charging sessions can it do? i.e. what's the approx maximum distance it can do before batteries need to cool down?
Funny you ask, I did a torture test on mine to answer this exact question:


By pushing the car as hard as I could (top speed on the motorway - 80mph) and accelerating and decelerating hard I was able to get the battery temperature up to the low 40's after alternating 5 rapid charging and motorway sessions.

My conclusion is that for "normal" motorway driving in a UK climate, driving for range instead of driving like an idiot you could rapid charge as many times as you like in a row without the battery overheating. This is especially the case if you charge all the way to 80%.

The reason for this is that the low SoC part of the charge is at high power (43kW) and during this time the cell temperature does rise a couple of degrees, however beyond about 50% the charge rate slows enough that the air conditioner actually cools the pack more than the charging heats it up so the temperature starts to fall again while it's still charging. So over an entire rapid charging session of say 20% to 80% there is a net drop in battery temperature of several degrees so you leave the rapid charger with the battery cooler than when you arrived...
 

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Hi there,

I had an i-miev before my Zoe, so here you go

  1. Does it have a heated steering wheel? (looks like it doesn't) No
  2. Does it have heated seats? (looks like a simple on/off for front seats only) Mine did drivers only, but may be dependent on trim level so double check (switch by your kneew)
  3. Heated steering wheel? Still no
  4. Does it have remote heating? (yes but via some weird remote control device, no smartphone app) Yes but not on early i-miev, also I believe not on C-Zero or Ion. Double check when you look.
  5. Does it have cruise control? No
  6. Does it have any battery thermal management? Yes, air con cooled air is put over the battery during rapid charging. Doesnt really tax the battery enough during driving to need cooling when driving, only rapid charging.
  7. Does it have a battery heat gauge? No, doesnt need it, see above.
  8. Does it have a user accessible SOH display? Health no, it shows charge level on the dash. Get CanIon and a suitable dongle and andriod phone.
  9. Does it have anything equivalent to LeafSpy app? (diagnostic app, via wireless OBD port) Yes CanIon.
  10. Can a standard sized DIN (or double DIN) stereo be easily fitted? Yes mine had a standard stereo fitted and had a cubby underneath, you can fit a DIN or double DIN.
  11. How many successive rapid charging sessions can it do? i.e. what's the approx maximum distance it can do before batteries need to cool down? You can just keep going and charging. Batteries dont get hot when driving because its a light car and if you want to get decent range you wont be going mad. Air con cools batteries during rapid charging so you can keep going all day if you like. I sold my car to someone about 200 miles away, they just drove it services to services rapid charging each time.
They are great cars, really good fun. Batteries seem to last very well, mine was a 2011 and range was still very good.
 

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Does it have a user accessible SOH display? It has a "Fuel Gauge" which gives a graphical display of SOH
The Fuel Gauge shows SoC. There is no SoH display in the car unfortunately, however this is still the case in most EV's.
 

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In addition some comments:-

If you are looking for heated steering wheels and cruise control, IMHO iMiev or clones is not the car for you, try looking a Kia Soul instead

Sorry, Fuel Gauge shows State of Charge. If buying a car, you really need to take it on a 50-70 mile test drive and see what happens

IMHO, a triplet Ion or CZero post 2015 is a much better proposition than a Mitsubishi being actually obtainable and subject to a lot of Design Improvements

For preheat, its possible manumatic style (put car into ready with non remote key, switch heater on full, lock car with remote key, brush teeth, open car with remote, car will be fully warm and defrosted. No chance of the car being stolen this way, no pollution from cold idling engine, Note, this probably does NOT apply to early iMievs and triplets because the electric heater was improved during the cars life giving much faster warmup.

At the end of the day, the car is NOT a Zoe and NOT a Leaf24. Obviously much compromised compared to these two but also much better in quite a few ways, horses for courses.
 

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IMHO, a triplet Ion or CZero post 2015 is a much better proposition than a Mitsubishi being actually obtainable and subject to a lot of Design Improvements
It should be mentioned that around mid 2012 the cells were changed from LEV50 to LEV50N. Supposedly these newer cells degrade at a much slower rate than the original ones like those in my 2011 Ion. As I am now facing replacing 3-4 cells in mine that are starting to go faulty at 8 years and 55k miles, (still working but they have degraded a lot faster than other cells in the pack and the range is well below where I think it should be) if I was to buy again I would try to get one of the later cars with the newer cells. Unfortunately I don't know any easy way from just looking at the car visually to tell whether a car near the changeover year has the old or new cells, as date of manufacture and date of sale / first registration don't always link together in a logical way.

On an C-Zero/Ion you can tell from Canion because the later cars with LEV50N only have 80 cells instead of the original 88 cells, however all i-Miev's have 88 cells regardless of new or old cells being fitted, so I don't know how you would tell in an i-Miev other than it being much newer than 2012 and well past the changeover date. (Cell type is not even reported by the dealer diagnostic tool, so can probably only be confirmed using the part number stamped on the pack)
For preheat, its possible manumatic style (put car into ready with non remote key, switch heater on full, lock car with remote key, brush teeth, open car with remote, car will be fully warm and defrosted. No chance of the car being stolen this way, no pollution from cold idling engine, Note, this probably does NOT apply to early iMievs and triplets because the electric heater was improved during the cars life giving much faster warmup.
I have the old heater in mine and this still works. Even in sub zero temperatures with ice on the windows 10 minutes with the heater turned right up will warm the car up and de-ice all the windows without scraping. (I never scrape or spray de-icer in winter, at least not at home) As I need every last drop of mileage for my commute in the winter what I actually do is:

Put the heater on full blast with the spare key and lock the car an hour before departure using the normal key, (car can't be stolen, and is near silent outside even with the blower fan on maximum so doesn't disturb neighbours like an idling ICE would) let it blast for about 10-15 minutes while I eat breakfast until the car is de-iced, then put the car back on charge for the remaining 45 minutes. This is long enough to get right back up to 100% again but not too long for the car to ice up again. It won't be toasty warm but it will not be ice cold either, and the PTC heater and heater matrix will still hold their heat during that time, so the heater blows hot again within a couple of minutes of turning the car back on instead of having the normal warm up time.

If I had plenty of spare range I would just do what you suggest - turn on the heater and lock the car 10 minutes before departure and then just get in and drive away.

Lack of automatic pre-heating is one of my main gripes with the car (along with the seats) however you have to accept some compromises on a cheap car and it still beats idling a noisy ICE engine for 10 minutes while you're out spraying de-icer and/or scraping...
 

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richi.uk
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Adding a few extra points:
  • Passenger-side heated seats were standard on Keiko variant and above (in the centre console; the driver's switch is next to your left knee)
  • My usual plug for the free OBDZero Android app, which works with far more OBD adapters
  • Agree batteries are lasting well—much better than similarly-aged, Japanese-built Leafs
  • I'm not sure the LEV50N degrades "much" slower: Yuasa says LEV50 would typically be at ~85% SoH after 1,000 cycles, but LEV50N would be at 90% ("cycle" in this case is 4.1V–2.75V at 1C)
 

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Re LEV50 versus LEV50N, maybe we could start a thread with whatever data there is. A general trend only is that across automotive lithium battery manufacture, over the period of changeover there was vastly improving levels of cleanliness and trace element contamination control which presumably Yuasa also implemented to a degree.
Apart from batteries, improvements to the design of the OBC presumably were made to reduce incidence of in and out of warranty failures. Motor drive inverters were repackaged on later cars, anyone guess as to reasons?
 

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  • Agree batteries are lasting well—much better than similarly-aged, Japanese-built Leafs
  • I'm not sure the LEV50N degrades "much" slower: Yuasa says LEV50 would typically be at ~85% SoH after 1,000 cycles, but LEV50N would be at 90% ("cycle" in this case is 4.1V–2.75V at 1C)
Not sure where your figures are coming from for LEV50N, the following datasheet claims 80% SoH after 5,500 cycles at full depth of discharge:


If true that is a massive difference to the LEV50 as 5500 cycles with 14kWh usable capacity and 4 miles/kWh would be 308k miles. :oops:

My cells are definitely not lasting as well as even 85% after 1000 cycles. At 55k miles assuming an average of 4 miles/kWh around the year and a usable capacity of 14kWh that is 982 cycles, and my weakest cells are now down to a SoH of 71% and falling rapidly...

So I'm not sure that they last any better than early Leaf's. There seems to be a lot of variation from one car to another though, and I think it probably either comes down to manufacturing flaws in individual cells that become apparent over time, or the conditions under which the cells are operated. My gut feeling is a large spread in capacity of cells in the same pack (as I have) is caused by repeated deep discharging, which will tend to cause more capacity loss for cells that are weaker to begin with, thus the spread keeps increasing over time as the weaker cells get discharged more deeply than the good cells. Basically, a runaway condition.

So those cars that have been deeply discharged a lot pushing the range to the limit all the time will have a wide spread in cell capacities, while those that haven't and have just done short runs to the shops will have much closer matched cells even at the same mileage. There are a few examples of cars on here with moderately high mileages whose cells are very well matched. Mine certainly aren't!

I think the claimed cycle life of these cells is "aspirational" rather than guaranteed. ;)
 

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richi.uk
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Interesting. The 85 vs 90 stat came from the Japanese 2012 technical report. 1,000 is as far as the graph goes, and only compares at 25 degrees and at fairly low currents.

My 2012 has 45,000 miles, so I guess about 750 cycles (if 60 miles per cycle). BMU reports 39 Ah SoH, which would presumably be 78%, if using 50 Ah = 100% (85% if 45.8 Ah). But I'm not seeing cell imbalances.

I'm not sure if that makes me lucky or @DBMandrake unlucky.
 

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At 2.5 per mile, we're all lucky. The battery pack allows individual cells to be replaced which is pretty uncommon.

I was sad when I sold my i-miev but actually just awaiting arrival of a Peugeot Ion that needs some work doing (charger issues).

If you can accept limited range then they are great - as a 2nd car alongside an ICE car for longer journeys they are great.

Thanks.
 

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Interesting. The 85 vs 90 stat came from the Japanese 2012 technical report. 1,000 is as far as the graph goes, and only compares at 25 degrees and at fairly low currents.
Yes I've seen that report too and it's a bit vague as you say.
My 2012 has 45,000 miles, so I guess about 750 cycles (if 60 miles per cycle). BMU reports 39 Ah SoH, which would presumably be 78%, if using 50 Ah = 100% (85% if 45.8 Ah). But I'm not seeing cell imbalances.

I'm not sure if that makes me lucky or @DBMandrake unlucky.
I'm probably just unlucky. My car was at 38.9Ah at 38k miles then around 40k miles something went wrong and the degradation rate (of the weak cells) increased by a factor of at least 3. I've been recording and graphing Ah capacity against mileage in excel ever since I've had the car.

Not fully up to date as I've taken more measurements since (down to 32.6Ah now) but gives an idea:


Battery degradation6.png
Battery degradation7.png


The green and red lines are the capacity of the best and worst cells in the pack respectively when a battery calibration was performed. So yours at 39Ah at 45k miles falls somewhere in the middle of my best and worst cells. Of course the usable capacity of a pack is limited by the worst cell in the pack, hence why the blue and yellow lines are tracking the red one...

It's both amazing and depressing to think that if all the cells in the pack were as good as the best cell it would still be at about 40.5Ah now... quality control issues during manufacture ?
 

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Is there any way the weak cell issue could be caused by a cell balance electronics board failure (balancing resistor etc). I guess you have already ruled this out via Diagbox and observing cell voltages during charging?

Do the weak cells heat up a significantly different rate during rapid charging?
 

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Is there any way the weak cell issue could be caused by a cell balance electronics board failure (balancing resistor etc). I guess you have already ruled this out via Diagbox and observing cell voltages during charging?
Cell balancing seems to work perfectly, all cells balance within 5mV at full charge every Level 2 charge. As far as I can tell there is no electronics failure and it's definitely cell faults. (It better be anyway as I've already bought the replacement cells. :LOL:)
Do the weak cells heat up a significantly different rate during rapid charging?
Hard to say as there are 88 cells and only 66 temperature sensors. (only 3 cells of each group of 4 are measured) Also I don't know what the mapping is between those 66 temperature sensors and the 88 cells.

What I have noticed though is that the 3 worst cells now have significantly higher internal resistance than others as they reach their peak charge voltage of 4.105 volts during rapid charging way before the other cells. This causes the rapid charge rate to start throttling a lot sooner (lower SoC) than it should.

The difference in rapid charging speeds between my first summer with the car (2017) and this summer is quite stark - it would charge from anything (even almost zero) to 82% in 20 minutes and maintain 43kW up to about 40-50% SoC, now it takes 25-30 minutes to even go from 40% to 80% because it tapers so early and above 50% it is interminably slow. Even as low as 30% SoC it's already slowed down to <30kW.

It also frequently cuts off as low as 76% on Chademo and won't go to 82% without restarting the charge - something it only ever did in the dead of winter before. I think it's hitting either a minimum charge rate (kW) limit or a time limit due to the excessive tapering of the charge.

So part of the reason for wanting to do the cell swap is to restore rapid charging speeds. I've also noticed B mode regeneration is not as strong as it used to be - probably for the same reason that rapid charging is slower. (Regeneration rate being limited by the ECU to prevent the high resistance cells going over voltage as regeneration can reach power levels similar to Chademo)

High internal resistance is usually a sign of a failing or damaged cell as normal capacity degradation doesn't usually affect cell internal resistance unless the cell is very close to the end of its life.
 

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richi.uk
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Fascinating. It's chemistry, innit? Stuff is inevitably variable.

It's great that the pack is relatively accessible and repairable. One of the reasons I got mine, rather than a Leaf. Especially as I'd already had experience of the Outlander, with its similar pack.

[How bizarre that the site silently changes "T a x l a n d e r" to "Outlander"]
 

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The difference in rapid charging speeds between my first summer with the car (2017) and this summer is quite stark - it would charge from anything (even almost zero) to 82% in 20 minutes and maintain 43kW up to about 40-50% SoC, now it takes 25-30 minutes to even go from 40% to 80% because it tapers so early and above 50% it is interminably slow. Even as low as 30% SoC it's already slowed down to <30kW.

I see voltage control (4.05v) kick in at about 40%, Overall effect is slower Rapid charging than your summer 2017 experience ( at younger batteries, lower mileage). Can I assume that charging envelope has been restricted on later triplets?
 

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The difference in rapid charging speeds between my first summer with the car (2017) and this summer is quite stark - it would charge from anything (even almost zero) to 82% in 20 minutes and maintain 43kW up to about 40-50% SoC, now it takes 25-30 minutes to even go from 40% to 80% because it tapers so early and above 50% it is interminably slow. Even as low as 30% SoC it's already slowed down to <30kW.

I see voltage control (4.05v) kick in at about 40%, Overall effect is slower Rapid charging than your summer 2017 experience ( at younger batteries, lower mileage). Can I assume that charging envelope has been restricted on later triplets?
Well, it's too late in the year now to get maximum rapid charging speed - you won't see optimal charging until the cells are between 30-40 degrees C. Above 40C the charging rate will be electronically limited to protect the batteries and below 30C the internal resistance starts to gradually go up which causes earlier tapering.

Also, you only have 80 cells instead of 88, that means your maximum charge voltage is only 328 volts instead of 360.8 volts. On my car to reach the peak 43kW that many chargers can provide that's 119 amps. With only 328 volts you'd need 131 amps - which is more than some chargers are willing to supply.

So on a regular 50kW charger you'll probably see slower charging on the 80 cell cars, as to absorb the same amount of power it would require a proportionally higher current that either the charger may not be willing to supply, or the cells may not be able to take without going over voltage...

Ultimately what controls the charge rate (assuming that the charger is able to supply the demand, and the cells aren't very hot or very cold causing the BMS to limit charging to protect them) is the peak cell voltage of about 4.1 volts.

The lower the internal cell resistance the more power they can take without exceeding their maximum terminal voltage, and the higher in SoC they can go before the charge rate has to start tapering to stay under the maximum cell voltage. You'll notice that it starts tapering as soon as the first cell hits about 4.1 volts and it won't let any go above 4.105.

On my car the worst cell of the bad three hits 4.105 volts during a Chademo charge while most other cells in the pack are still only at about 4.075 volts - doesn't sound like much but that 30mV can mean the difference between remaining at 43kW for another 10 minutes or throttling back well under 30kW...

Edit: Here is an example during rapid charging where the high resistance cells are causing early tapering:

 
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