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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
So I use a 40 Leaf to run round my city all day delivering lunch orders to homes and businesses.

Today the temperature was hovering between -1 and 1’c all day.

I now know from experience that my car will not run out of electrons on a busy day, it just about manages to do the full days driving on a single charge with the heating on, so my days of being cold are behind me.

I use the heater all day

I drive my EV like every other car I’ve owned, if I’m in the wrong lane at traffic lights and I’m running late I use the appropriate amount of the quiet pedal to adjust the situation where necessary.

My real world findings today were as follows:

I left home with 100% SOC I drove 82 miles and returned home with 7% I make that circa 2.3 miles per kWh.

Not winning any awards for range there but I’m basically a courier and I drive as needed to get the job done without freezing my nether regions off.

Thats pretty close to half my cars “theoretical range” does this mean in the real world we all need to buy an EV that is advertised with twice the range we need to be able to use it properly in winter?

Winter has a dramatic effect on my car I was only using 60% even in a really heavy day in summer!

What is everyone else finding range is like in winter?

Has anyone been caught out by this?
 

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I've generally used a figure of 70% of the WLTP range being possible in winter, and that's for a single steady trip. As a courier you're doing a lot of stop-start, parking, opening the door & cooling the cabin sharply, and probably spending a fair bit of time stationary at the destinations doing form-filling, setting sat-nav for next destination etc. You average speed is likely to be rather low as a result. So a figure of 50% does not surprise me at all tbh.

Cabin heating takes a lot of extra power, as does the EV heating the traction battery if it's very cold. Not sure if Leaf ever does heat the battery, they have a reputation for never cooling them much. So to reduce heating losses but staying warm people do things like use the heated seat + heated steering wheel and turning off the expensive cabin heating. Add to that wearing coat, gloves, warm shoes, thermals, hat etc, all the things you'd do to keep warm when outdoors in winter. For the car itself it's a good idea to keep the tyres at the top end of the allowable pressures, don't let them get low. Leaf aerodynamics are poor, so restricting the top speed you use (when roads allow) is also a good plan. Windage losses go up with the square of speed, so e.g. driving at 55 is 10% ( 1.1x) faster than 50, but the aerodynamic drag will be 1.2*1.1 more, = 1.21 more, = 20% more.

I've just got an ID.3, and with present (not very developed yet!) software, it starts heating the big battery whenever the temp is below 8C and you set out. This morning I went about 0.6 mile to the shops & back, just to turn the wheels over & check 12V battery was ok. Car reckoned I got 1.1 miles/kWh!! with a 58 kWh battery, this means if I were doing 0.6m trips & the battery was never getting warmed up 'coz it's so cold, and I'm pausing for a long time after each tiny trip, then my total range would be around 65 miles, not the 160 miles WLTP claim! So actual range is very highly dependent on the pattern of usage, and your sounds a particularly hard one. It's the heating that's killing your range.
 

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2014 Model S
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Leaf is dreadful in cold weather. No thermal battery management means it loses battery power even more. I also don't like the way it starts up with 145 miles and it will manage about 100.

After having several EVs in cold weather they're all a bit disappointing.
 

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40kW Leaf Tekna & 22kW Zoë Q210 dynamique intens
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I have been keeping an eye on the battery temperature using LeafSpy once it’s got going in the morning it tends to settle down around 18’c and stays there all day when it’s near freezing, so I guess that’s not terrible.

I always plug it in as soon as I get home so I’m charging a warm battery.

When charging at 7kW it is usually about 20’c when the charge is finished.

I do doorstep drops so I rarely turn off the ignition so I leave the heater on set at 21’c with the fan speed on minimum.

The heating just barely ticks over at this setting once it’s warm.

The car has the range to do what I need it to do on a full charge in winter so I don’t really see the point in being cold.

It will be interesting to see as the car ages how my battery fairs as my usage pattern keeps it warm for around 15 hours a day.

Even when I get in first thing in the morning it’s still around 10’c even when the outside of the car is frozen so I am effectively protecting the battery from ever dropping to ambient temperatures during the winter.
 

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Batteries hold more charge when they're warm, and Li-Ions like being around 20C - 30C to be really happy. 10C and less is chilly for them. So I'd suggest try to charge it so that it fills just as you're leaving in the morning. A shorter charge at 7 kW should leave the battery warmer than a longer one at 3.5 kW, so if you could get the battery up around 20C before you leave, that should help a bit. Might not fit so well with cheap-rate tarriffs though, if you use these.
 

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I do voluntary work taking aged people to the doctor's, etc, locally. The other day while waiting in the car park (I leave the car on with the climate control running) I pulled up the energy screen for the trip out of curiosity.
50% HVAC, 30% "Electronics", 20% drive.
It's that 30% that is really a bit scary - it's using almost as much to keep the car idling as the cabin warm.
 

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I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
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So I use a 40 Leaf to run round my city all day delivering lunch orders to homes and businesses.

Today the temperature was hovering between -1 and 1’c all day.

I now know from experience that my car will not run out of electrons on a busy day, it just about manages to do the full days driving on a single charge with the heating on, so my days of being cold are behind me.

I use the heater all day

I drive my EV like every other car I’ve owned, if I’m in the wrong lane at traffic lights and I’m running late I use the appropriate amount of the quiet pedal to adjust the situation where necessary.

My real world findings today were as follows:

I left home with 100% SOC I drove 82 miles and returned home with 7% I make that circa 2.3 miles per kWh.

Not winning any awards for range there but I’m basically a courier and I drive as needed to get the job done without freezing my nether regions off.

Thats pretty close to half my cars “theoretical range” does this mean in the real world we all need to buy an EV that is advertised with twice the range we need to be able to use it properly in winter?

Winter has a dramatic effect on my car I was only using 60% even in a really heavy day in summer!

What is everyone else finding range is like in winter?

Has anyone been caught out by this?
Simple answer, answered many times here before; lots of stopping and slow driving = your heater is using more energy than your traction motor, i.e. more than halves your summer range with no heating.
 

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2018 Nissan Leaf 40kWh Tekna - love it
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I tried to introduce a thread where members here were asked to post data on actual mileages achieved per charge under various conditions. I gave up because I was nearly the only regular contributor. Anyway, I found the data was in effect available on an EV database and it seemed pretty accurate to me.
 

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I tried to introduce a thread where members here were asked to post data on actual mileages achieved per charge under various conditions. I gave up because I was nearly the only regular contributor. Anyway, I found the data was in effect available on an EV database and it seemed pretty accurate to me.
Could you please point us to this database? I would be interested to see it and others may also.
 

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2018 Nissan Leaf 40kWh Tekna - love it
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Yes, I'm still smarting from the lack of response to my thread which would have collected ranges under real UK conditions, so apologies for my slight stropiness.
For my own situation, I don't care much or even at all about short trip efficiency as I can charge at home every day if needed. It's when I set out for those infrequent long trips that I need to have a pretty good estimate of how far I can go before charging and I like to plan on the basis of having 20% at my first charging stop.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
That database seems pretty accurate for the leaf I still had 7% when I got home and I was only about 10 miles short of their cold weather prediction, if I’d have driven slightly more economically it would have been about spot on!

Although it was -1 not -10 not sure how much more difference that would have made.
 

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I'm not crazy, the attack has begun.
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Yes, I'm still smarting from the lack of response to my thread which would have collected ranges under real UK conditions, so apologies for my slight stropiness.
For my own situation, I don't care much or even at all about short trip efficiency as I can charge at home every day if needed. It's when I set out for those infrequent long trips that I need to have a pretty good estimate of how far I can go before charging and I like to plan on the basis of having 20% at my first charging stop.
It 'might' be (not saying it is) because, like me, people already know the answer.

Real world summer range = ~WLTP = 2/3 * ~NEDC
Winter range = 1/2 * ~NEDC, i.e. about 2/3 of WLTP.

Anything more detailed than that and you're into particulars, like specific journey speeds, weather, how many people on board, raining or not, stuff like that.

Going from NEDC to WLTP was a huge waste of everyone's efforts. If you compare, almost every example where we have both, so WLTP = ~2/3 *NEDC. Might as well have stuck with NEDC with a footnote with that multiplier mentioned.

I can't see the value in all the hooharr about NEDC not being realistic. Anyone who spent more than a few minutes looking at the reality would figure out the above multipliers. Instead, now, the 'generally maximum' and achievable range (yes, NEDC is definitely achievable) can be instead calculated as WLTP * 1.5.
 

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2018 Nissan Leaf 40kWh Tekna - love it
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You're probably right but I just thought there might be some interest. I did guess though that it might be the case that there is a reluctance to admit to under par range figures for the car that we have invested in.
I will just use the EV Database figures with some adjustments for more realistic winter temperatures when I come to purchase or lease a new car. For my 40kWh Leaf, I have all the data I need.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I didn’t see that post, I scan quite regularly with leaf spy and log milage so would have contributed if I’d have seen it.

The way I use a vehicle is totally different to your average joe so none of the published figures are really any use to me.

That was ok with ICE vehicles other than some have turned out to be a lot more expensive to run than I anticipated.

I was given a courtesy car the other day for 2 days (Vauxhall insignia loathsome thing was like travelling back in time a decade to drive) I used £36.30 in diesel in 2 days!!

That runs my leaf for 3 weeks!!

Anyway I digress I have effectively dipped my toe in the full EV world hoping that winter wouldn’t throw a spanner in the works.

Fortunately it hasn’t but a DB of real world city driving figures for EV’s would actually have been pretty useful to me.

Having said that I don’t think I’d buy a future EV to replace the leaf that had less than a 60kW battery on board.

I suspect that will be significantly cheaper in a few years when I chop the Leaf.
 
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