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NISSAN LEAF 62Kwh
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If you are out of battery warranty, and you battery is failing and you vehicle is still good, then paying that kind of money for a new battery pack with regards to a straight swop is something to be considered with the proviso of the excellent points already raise.

What would worry me about extending a battery capacity is the additional weight being added to the vehicle, it must be in the region of 150kg’s. That’s a lot of weight and that’s going to affect the ride, handling and cornering, surely, consideration might have to be given replacing the shocks with something a bit more beefy.

Where are the additional battery’s going to go? in the boot area I suppose so that’s a lot of capacity for luggage lost.

The battery‘s used by these firms are generally not brand new, they are accident recovered and there for, a bit like sausages, bags of mystery.

I am not pouring cold water on the idea, just points that need to be considered.
 

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2020 Corsa E
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Pros of battery upgrade: cheaper than buying an actual 40, no size difference in outer car.
Cons: unknown support, unknown battery quality, unknown resale in future, potential insurance issues, weight difference.

Pros of car change to 30: cheaper than buying an actual 40, no size difference in outer car, manufacturer support
Cons: range won't be as good as an actual 40.

Is that a fair summary?
 

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I think that we need to keep a distinction between the two upgrade methods:
  1. Battery swapping from one Nissan pack to another. The 40kWh is only another 80 kg and mounts in the same size outer case in the same position under the car. The 40kWh pack has known issues with overheating and hence reduced rapid charging rates are required.
  2. Extender batteries are put in the boot mainly behind the rear wheels and higher up. The additional 8.8kWh adds around 85kg, the 17.6kWh adds around 150kg and Muxsan uprate the rear springs. These are ex VW GTE batteries and capable of withstanding more abuse than Nissan ones, so Rapid charging is considerably better.
So to my mind neither is an ideal solution. :unsure:
 

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Discussion Starter #24
Thanks for suggesting a 30. My parents have a 30 and we have driven it on occasion. It is a good car but the maths would be:

  • £6k likely value of our well-used 24 Acenta
  • £10k for a Leaf 30 (minus £6k = £4k outlay)
  • or £7k outlay for a 40kWh battery.
Our 24 has 19kWh usable (we have been lucky and still have 12 bars) and a Leaf 30 would have perhaps 27kWh usable if the battery is in mint condition whereas a 40kWh battery would have 36-37kWh usable. Our preference would be to get a big leap in range rather than just an incremental one. We had been planning to just hold on to our 24 until we could afford a 40 and a slight extension to the garage but I'm weighing up the longer range battery option quite seriously instead.
 

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Discussion Starter #25
dk6780:

Thanks for making this distinction. I am not looking for an extender as we like our boot the shape and size it is but are looking for a new 40kWh battery. Like I say, I am at the very early stages and I appreciate the valuable opinions and advice I have received here.

Waiting a couple of years for a 40 or even a 62 is still a viable option. If you don't hear from me in this thread again then you can assume I did not go ahead with the battery swap.
 

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We've just driven to London and back, a total of 276 miles. Went up full, single rapid charge of 27kW, had 10 miles/ 6% left when we got home. Mostly motorway with cruise control set to 60mph.

If we have 37.5kW capacity (18-plate Leaf with 35k on the clock, so probably less), then that's a range of 160 miles.

In winter, I think we get about 120-130 miles.

In terms of range anxiety, try insuring through LV. Our cover includes free recovery to the nearest charging point if we run out of power. I'm not planning on trying it out, but it does help me relax about taking the level down closer to zero!
 

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Discussion Starter #27
Thanks! My wife is more cautious than me and we have agreed to think it over and maybe look to upgrade in January rather than rush to a decision now.

Re range anxiety: I've had a Leaf24 for five years so range anxiety in a 40 is the least of my worries! Being based in central Scotland though it would just be nice to have a car that can make any UK journey in perhaps 2-3 rapid charges rather than the five-plus that a Leaf24 would take on a long journey from central Scotland to central England.
 

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btw James from Fully Charged? I believe is based in scotland and has / had a Leaf gen2 40kw:
might give you a better idea of traveling in and around UK with a Leaf
 

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2011 Leaf with Muxsan 17.6kWh battery, curt tow hitch fitted for bikes or buzz rack P10
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hi @ScotstounPele, my handle was mentioned earlier so i will share my experience. Having had the muxsan 17.6kwh installed for a while now i can tell you of the pros and cons.
We have it installed in a 2011 leaf with the earliest "canary" cells. recently as in last week I drove the family to Rotterdam via the Eurotunnel and then onto some friends house in Arft, Germany, near Cologne. The route its self from Manchester is 1300 miles but i think we probably did more like 1500 when you factor in other driving on the non travelling days. This was all in the space of 9 days.

I really like Muxsan, Emile and Sjaack have a similar philosophy to me which is don't throw things away prematurely which can be improved economically.

The car can do about 90 dependable miles on a charge at about 60mph at 80% starting soc saving 20 miles on the GOM. I never like to push the envelope too far as i don't want to stress what is an old Nissan 22kwh pack (75%soh). This is to say you can get 110 miles but i wouldn't try it.

In a Gen1 Japanese car you lose more boot space. in the Sunderland built models you can get the second half of the gte pack to lie at the same level with a couple turned on their sides which gains you a junk more space. Apparently though Gen1 have a stronger AC (better cooling) and can actually be hacked for more power though i haven't gone for that.

So i have two small boys and a patient wife but i think it was all a bit too much travelling but on the flip side the car never let us down. we had issues with ecotricity which were unrelated (app went down on my phone, in their defense their phone line did work and we got a charge started, it just took 10 more mins at the end of an already stressful day). The realisation we came to is that we would really like a car that could do a 300 mile journey before charging. This would mean our travel times would be substantially decreased and our anxiety about chargers in the UK diminished also. Anyway the issue with the canary cells is that when the soh drops the Internal resistance of the pack goes up almost exponentially. With a Muxsan pack you can witness this first hand as the GTE cells are relatively much lower Internal resistance which means when you are regenning down large hills the Muxsan pack soaks that energy first (or the bulk of it) and when you rapid charge it dis-proportionally goes to the Muxsan pack which means that you end up with the GTE cells feeding the Muxsan pack once you have driven off (you can see this on leaf spy as the shunt is only on the Nissan pack)

This is all to say that my advice if you can afford is and you have a gen 1 is to swap both packs. When we can we most likely will source a 40 or 62 from a breakers yard. 62Kwh packs don't physically fit without modification to the top of the shell but it has been done before firstly by Canadians.

There are other enhancements in the pipeline with Muxsan and they aren't always on their site because they are very busy doing the conversions. From what i witnessed last week the team is growing an I hope that will allow Emile and Sjaack to carry on innovating. It is clear that a really big issue is getting a supply of reliable Nissan packs as Nissan themselves clearly are not going to support it.

For full disclosure i also have wheel hub insert plastic printed designed by Paul Kennett which give an estimated 3-6% efficiency improvement dependent on speed. I have a curt tow bar hitch but i didn't use my buzz rack p10 for the Europe trip as we could get the dog vaccinated due to backlogs of vaccines caused by covid shutting down vets. In this heat it would have been too much for her and she had a great time in doggy day care for the week.

I hope this give you some insight into the Muxsan packs, its interesting to see now some liquid cooled packs on new cars that are getting much better wltp range scores. Then again i cant see those being affordable to me to buy (secondhand) and I really dislike the idea of leasing/finance.

I think if a 62Kwh pack did become available then with the 17Kwh muxsan pack you would have a near 300 mile range which wouldn't rapidgate.

Edit - also the insurance wasn't an issue I declared it to Hastings direct who we are with and it didn't affect our premium but the Muxsan pack and its value is not insured per se. I.e. the car is insured to the value of its non modified state.
 

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If you are going for a used 40Kwh LEAF, the oldest are coming up to 2.5 years old now, it's worth noting that in my experience and according LEAFSPY the battery tends to loose 1Kwh range per year. The 2,Zero I had was 37.5Kwh when new (as @ElectricIan said) after 2 years and 24K miles, the battery capacity was 35.5Kwh. That is 2Kwh's lose or about 8 miles range.
I have just purchased a 2 year old 40kw leaf which has only covered 3700 miles.

Can I expect my car to have suffered a 2kwh loss because of its age or would you expect it to have faired much better than that due to a very small number of charging / discharging cycles?
 

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If it's been left at high stages of charge a lot then it might be even worse. There is a battery health page in the dash screen. Mine was still complete after 17000 miles at 17 months old. LeafSpy will give you better information.

Checked my long term average and it was 3.8 miles per kWh over 2000 odd miles. That's December to now.
 

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I have just purchased a 2 year old 40kw leaf which has only covered 3700 miles.

Can I expect my car to have suffered a 2kwh loss because of its age or would you expect it to have faired much better than that due to a very small number of charging / discharging cycles?
I also purchased a Leaf 40kw 2019 recently with 80k km / 50k mi and I've lost 8% = about 3kw

My leaf reports no lost bars obviously.
 

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NISSAN LEAF 62Kwh
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With an ICE vehicle, the motor trade puts a premium value on Low mileage second hand vehicles, my opinion, but I don’t think the motor trade has really fully caught onto the concept of electric vehicles.

The battery pack once it is assembled into a vehicle will start to degrade, the rate of degradation is down the battery quality and chemistry. So from day one, the clock is ticking down, the EV that is only used once a week, doesn’t stop the clock, yes there is less charging cycles, which helps long term as a battery doesn’t an infinite number of cycles. But battery packs don’t like to be stood idle for long periods of time, they much prefer to be worked.

Hopefully as the battery pack gets older and is not subject to abuse like excessive heat, the rate of degradation will reduce to a snails pace but the clocks still ticks down

If you have an EV, it needs to be used everyday to get full value from it, buying a second hand EV with a good average mileage on it is where the value is. Unlike an ICE vehicle, paying a premium for a low mileage EV is poor value. That said very high mileage EV’s should be avoided as they may have been subjected to excessive rapid charging and the battery to excessive heat.

I was horrified to read, that VW started manufacturing the ID3 last year so that they would have a massive stock to meet demand on launch day. These battery packs would have suffered nearly a years degradation without a wheel even turning.
 

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2011 Leaf with Muxsan 17.6kWh battery, curt tow hitch fitted for bikes or buzz rack P10
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@GOSPORT DAVE thats an interesting point. You wonder whether they could or are building most of the car and putting the battery in at the finally moment but tbh i seriously doubt that.
 

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NISSAN LEAF 62Kwh
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VW’s mind set with ICE vehicles, is to produce vehicles in the thousands, store them on disused air port runways. When the customer goes into the dealership for say a GOLF, there’s one available with minimum lead time in the specification required. My cousin, bought a GOLF, ran it for 3 years, then traded in for a brand new model with the same specifications, turned out his new model was actually the same age as the vehicle he had traded in.

VW, got caught out with E GOLF, initially there was 9 month lead times because the production couldn’t meet demand and lost potentially customers to the competition, including me.

They don’t want to get caught out again, so employing the ICE mind set of pile them high, but EV’s have different characteristics, like battery degradation.

That said, most ID3 customers will buy on a 3 year lease and won’t notice the effects of battery degradation, might have an effect on future battery warranty claims, though, as battery packs fall below 70% capacity in years 6 and 7.
 

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I believe that they are using the NZ company EV Enhanced's battery pairing tool. If so, this gives them no control over any of the other parameters that Emile/Daniel have such as charge rate.
My concern is that Nissan will walk away from any future issues with the car and you'll be only supported by that garage.
That’s a given. Nissan will have no interest whatsoever as their software on that car was never designed to support the 40 pack capacity or chemistry and so liability will make them wave him away.
 

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With an ICE vehicle, the motor trade puts a premium value on Low mileage second hand vehicles, my opinion, but I don’t think the motor trade has really fully caught onto the concept of electric vehicles.

The battery pack once it is assembled into a vehicle will start to degrade, the rate of degradation is down the battery quality and chemistry. So from day one, the clock is ticking down, the EV that is only used once a week, doesn’t stop the clock, yes there is less charging cycles, which helps long term as a battery doesn’t an infinite number of cycles. But battery packs don’t like to be stood idle for long periods of time, they much prefer to be worked.

Hopefully as the battery pack gets older and is not subject to abuse like excessive heat, the rate of degradation will reduce to a snails pace but the clocks still ticks down

If you have an EV, it needs to be used everyday to get full value from it, buying a second hand EV with a good average mileage on it is where the value is. Unlike an ICE vehicle, paying a premium for a low mileage EV is poor value. That said very high mileage EV’s should be avoided as they may have been subjected to excessive rapid charging and the battery to excessive heat.

I was horrified to read, that VW started manufacturing the ID3 last year so that they would have a massive stock to meet demand on launch day. These battery packs would have suffered nearly a years degradation without a wheel even turning.
Thats interesting, having researched this a bit further since my initial question the general consensus among the battery experts seems to be that the actual cycle life of a modern lithium battery is greater than it’s calendar life so in order to exhaust the cycle life you would have to do 2 cycles daily to get anywhere close.

My preference would still be to purchase the lower mileage vehicle vehicle when looking at the over all picture of wear on all of the other components in the car / overall cosmetic condition battery aside and I would still be willing to pay a bit of a premium for a low miles car.

looking at the actual life of an EV battery I do a lot of around town driving in my job (70 - 80 miles per day) which is super high wear it’s rare I keep a car more than 3 years because of this so I tend to buy between 18 month to 2 year old used cars with super low mileage and only keep them for about 2-3 years and then trade up with average miles.

So from what I’ve researched I’m only going to be scratching the surface of my batteries longevity before I trade up.

I do plan to only charge back to 80 - 90% each evening depending on the ambient temperature as that will provide all the range I need while being as kind to the battery as possible.

I multi drop deliver all day, this tends to find the weaknesses in vehicles I hope the leaf can cope, only time will tell I’ll keep you posted!

😃
 

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Discussion Starter #38
Having now read Mike Schooling's "Battery upgrades - A cause for concern" thread elsewhere on this forum, and having also learned that a Hyundai Kona is shorter than a 2013 Leaf and should therefore fit in my wee garage okay, I am no longer looking at upgrading the battery on my Leaf. I'll sit tight til used Kona EVs enter my price range - and I must say that I am relieved to have found a modern EV that fits within the tight space of my garage, as expanding it would have been a headache given the layout of the garden.
 

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Corsa E/ Pug 208 are also short. Likely to be about £10k cheaper than the Kona for a long while into the future too. Smaller boot than the Kona but they're narrower and shorter but the front passenger space inside doesn't feel as small as the Zoe even though they're similarly sized. Which is weird...I think it's because there is an arm rest in the Corsa and there wasn't in the Zoe.

Kona is a far better car I'd imagine but Vauxhalls usually plummet in value. Service interval on the Corsa is also 2 years or 15,000 miles.
 
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