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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
You may have been following the dispute I have with my dealer and with Nissan regarding the new battery capacity of my Nissan Leaf... you can catch up here:

https://speakev.com/threads/vin-number-and-date-of-registration.4915/

We notified the dealer of our concerns a week after taking delivery when I felt that the range was not much better than our previous 3 year old Mk1. I said I would use the car and charge a few times to see if the capacity returned and after a further 2 weeks it had not so the car went back to the dealer after about 800 miles.

The new capacity of this Nissan Leaf is 20.8kWh or 260 GIDs as reported by LeafSpy...

All my investigations suggest that new battery capacity of a Nissan Leaf does vary a little bit from car to car but should be in the region of 22.48kWh or 281 GIDs. Not 20.8kWh or 260 GIDs which is the best we have had on our car from new.

The dealer has had the car now for over a week and Nissan technical are insisting this battery is up to an acceptable capacity for a new car.

So we have an impasse.

Nissan refuse to state what capacity is acceptable to them... just that mine is fine.

If they don't publish a figure below which they deem the battery to be substandard then how can we be certain we are not buying a car with a faulty battery?

I don't know where this is going at the moment. I am not prepared to accept a new Leaf with a battery capacity of 20.8kWh. We upgraded our Mk1 Leaf to get extra range. It had a battery capacity after 35K miles and 3.5 years of 255 GIDs 20.4kWh! Not much less than this brand new one.

Nissan do not dispute the current capacity of 20.8kWh so this is not a LeafSpy reporting issue. What is in dispute here is whether this is an acceptable capacity for a brand new car. Nissan say it is... but given the overwhelming weight of evidence on the various forums indicating it should be in the 22.0 - 22.4kWh I say it isn't.

So, I have verbally rejected the car under the Sale of Goods Act as being not of satisfactory standard. This is being confirmed in writing today. They have possession of the car. I will not collect this car whilst it has a substandard battery.

The next move is down to the dealer. It seems that their options are clear...

1) replace the faulty battery...

Interesting, the dealer had requested Nissan to do just that but Nissan technical say that it is not possible to replace the battery because the various management systems use serial numbers programmed in.

I find this an interesting claim in itself because it suggests that a future battery replacement is not possible... something that Nissan say is possible and is available in the USA already.

2) replace the car of identical spec but with a non-faulty battery...

This would be acceptable to me. All I want is to know that my battery is not faulty and to be sure that I will have a car with a battery with new capacity.

The issue of what is "new capacity" though remains. It might satisfy my personal belief that it should have between 22.0 & 22.4kWh but this is not a figure accepted by Nissan. Nissan do not quote a new battery capacity and have refused to give that figure.

3) refund us in full...

This would be a reasonable outcome under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 but it doesn't help us as we want a Nissan Leaf and although any future legal dispute might be with the dealer in all respects we feel that the dealer is doing all they can given the intransigence of Nissan GB.

Their hands are pretty much tied and their actions are to a large extent determined by what Nissan say. A refund would require us to buy our Leaf elsewhere and I feel that JFE Nissan is quite possibly one of the best Nissan dealers in the country with respect to customer service.

So at the moment we are not seeking a refund. We would only seek a refund should we decide that we no longer want a Nissan Leaf from anyone.

Having said all this... JFE Nissan may have other suggestions which we are always open to hear so watch this space.
 

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have you reached out to Nissan GB on twitter, always good to make a polite fuss, no need to go nuclear in public but ensure they are aware publicly :)
 

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Does leaf spy indicate that any one cell is at fault here or is it just that the overall capacity is a little lower than what you would expect? Also are you charging the car off the same charger that you used for the Mark 1, or using something else? could it be that the charger is cutting off early? I haven’t read the other thread so apologies if you have already answered it.

It’s a tricky one, the Gen-1 battery chemistry may well have a variation possibly, you need to measure your car against other mark 2 leafs and if leafspy isn’t showing up any rouge cells could it be that the battery is fine but has less capacity than the Mark 1 car that you had?

Best of luck however I think it might be tough to pull this one out under the sale of goods act because the battery is not faulty it’s just not what you expected which isn’t the same thing, its pretty tricky as we have seen with kevins battery woes although his was slightly different because he had 1 cell that clearly had a fault from new.

I bet Nissan are loving Leafspy! Ha ha 90% of Leaf buyers would have no clue and go by the bars, all bars=all good, be interested to see how you get on, I doubt much will happen though unless you stop the payments, car companies are slow when it comes to things like this, again best of luck.
 

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It may seem obvious and I don't know if you've been down this route yet but as the dealer seems to be quite responsive to your issue, would they be prepared to give the results of similar tests to other new Leafs they might have in stock / in the show room? Either by their own diagnostic equipment or by LeafSpy?? Either way it would fortify your case with Nissan? I've avoided getting LeafSpy for this very issue, if I have a problem, in 2 years the car won't be mine any more anyway and for all intents and purposes it does what I need it to do so I don't want the headache of knowing that it is substandard.
 

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This is exactly the reason I don't have LeafSpy - it would make me paranoid! In the same way I've never put any of my cars on a dynamometer to check that the engine is producing the claimed power...
(Not that I think you're in the wrong, @Paul_Churchley)

I assume you already had doubts before you connected LeafSpy?
 
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This is exactly the reason I don't have LeafSpy - it would make me paranoid! In the same way I've never put any of my cars on a dynamometer to check that the engine is producing the claimed power...
(Not that I think you're in the wrong, @Paul_Churchley)

I assume you already had doubts before you connected LeafSpy?
Conversely I'd find the car unusable without LeafDD or LeafSpy, because the guessometer is so crap. For the couple of weeks I had the car before I got the LeafDD I had to make two emergency charge stops with 3 pin plugs trailing out of doors and windows, simply because you set out with half a battery and it tells you you'll go 60 miles, then ten miles later tells you'll only go 40 etc....
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
have you reached out to Nissan GB on twitter, always good to make a polite fuss, no need to go nuclear in public but ensure they are aware publicly
I haven't reached out to Nissan on-line. I believe it is better done though the dealer.

Won't you need an independent expert's report on the battery capacity?
This might be something I could do but in all honesty... within 6 months of purchase it is not the responsibility of the consumer to prove the product is faulty... it is the responsibility of the seller to prove it is not and so if we go down that route then it would be the dealer paying for that investigation and presenting that to the court.

Does leaf spy indicate that any one cell is at fault here or is it just that the overall capacity is a little lower than what you would expect
No. There is no suggestion from LeafSpy that this is a faulty cell or cells.

Also are you charging the car off the same charger that you used for the Mark 1
could it be that the charger is cutting off early?
No. It matters not what charger I use. It is charging to 100%.

you need to measure your car against other mark 2 leafs
No I don't. I need to measure against a value that Nissan say constitutes a battery in good condition. What if the car I test against is also substandard?

We already have a huge body of evidence from the various EV forums that the "normal" battery capacity is around 281 GIDS or 22.48kWh. I am happy to accept a degree of variance and would even accept that 22.0kWh or 275GIDS to constitute a new battery capacity. But below that I consider the battery to be below par. Nissan should publish a figure to ensure that we get a battery with full new capacity. They refuse to do so.

I think it might be tough to pull this one out under the sale of goods act because the battery is not faulty it’s just not what you expected which isn’t the same thing
Really? Who says the battery is not at fault? It might be faulty or it just might be below average capacity for some reason unknown. Either way, it is sufficiently below what I would expect and what the broad evidence in the EV community suggests we could expect and so I consider this battery to be not of satisfactory quality.
 

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I never felt the need for it either but have just bought a dongle to check mine out, again like Rupert it has the range I need and its going back in May but I am still interested.
 

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Does Nissans battery report indicate the same capacity? I still think it will be tough trying to convince a judge that the battery is faulty though, you can actually argue that it is pointless testing the battery against any other car or “EV community” limit because there are variables that affect the overall capacity of all of the cars, some will be higher than others, some lower, the problem you have is that Nissan are not offering any capacity measure, this is what you need to have any chance, really you need Nissan to say that a new battery must have at least X capacity and if yours doesn’t then that’s pretty clear, I don’t see Nissan doing this for a very good reason, but it would be of great benefit if they did, however most folks they are selling the cars to would have no idea and would only complain if bars didn’t appear.

I don’t know if the Public airing of your issue may have any effect though as if potential buyers spot an established member returning the car under the sale of goods act they might think again about their purchase affecting sales, Sarah Fenwick will be all over it.

What this does prove is that a Dongle and leafspy or a printed battery report before you sign on the dotted line is something that people who are concerned must put in to practice, I certainly wouldn’t buy another Leaf without this check, the Dealer will not cover this unless Nissan release battery capacity limits, there of course is nothing to stop a healthy battery dropping like this in a short space of time either, they need to get some clarity around this else it might affect sales.

Let us know how you get on, must suck being down to one car and still paying for it though, is there any way you can get a loaner from the dealer?
 

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How 'balanced' is the pack according to LEAF Spy? Is there a large variation between cell voltages? Does the shunt page show a nice even spread of bars, or does it look like the Cairngorms, even on the higher scales (300+ mV)?

Another thing I'd be interested in seeing is the 'Hx' value - this is apparently an indication of internal resistance within the pack. The lower it is, the higher internal resistance is, and therefore capacity is reduced.
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
@knoxie I don't disagree. Because Nissan have not specified an acceptable capacity limit it will be down to the opinion of a judge or magistrate and we all know they come to some strange conclusions sometimes. :rolleyes: However, I think it is worth the fight if only to get a judgement and potentially set a precedent one way or the other.

I am not fighting this just on principle though. I am hugely disappointed that I have spent the best part of £10K extra to upgrade to a Mk2 leaf only to find my range is not significantly greater than my Mk1!

How 'balanced' is the pack according to LEAF Spy?
It is pretty normal. I have been observing my Mk1 battery through LeafSpy for the best part of 2 years now and this battery does not look any different. The cell voltages are pretty even.

Another thing I'd be interested in seeing is the 'Hx' value
HX is 91.9%
SOH=91%
miles=803
AHr= 60.05
 

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One easy way to get this across:
As new NEDC = 124 Miles
Today NEDC = 113 Miles
 

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The 'Car 1' in my battery degradation post had similar values but has recovered through deep-cycle use and less time spent grazing or left on 100% charge.

It was at 93% SOH with 60.90 Ahr and Hx of 93.61% after 2714 miles. It's now at 98% SOH, 64.53 Ahr, and 98.90% Hx with 3501 miles. Charge-wise we're only looking at another two rapids and an extra 20 or so L1/L2's since the first set of figures. I noticed while using it the other day that the Hx and SOH are continuing to improve.

My 'best' cars have Hx values over 100%, around 65 to 67 Ahr capacity, and 100% SOH indicated. Even so, none have managed much more over 100 miles on one charge, never mind 120.

Not sure why your values are so low compared to other LEAFs. Maybe the LEAF Spy settings will make a difference? I'm using shunt order 4812, Nom Voltage of 360.0, and Wh/GID of 77.5.

Alternatively, working the LEAF harder might improve things. It's counter intuitive I know, but it could help wake up the pack. My Grandad used to have to do something similar with his old Cortina. Every so often it needed a proper thrashing up and down the Motorway to shake it up a bit.
 
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Well I do wish you all the best Paul, the thing that matters is that you are not happy with your purchase and you have a right of redress, it is a lot of money and you have been a champion for the brand too, I hope that Nissan know this? Although it didn’t help Kevin and his fight with Tesla.

Both yourself and Kevin’s battery woes just highlight the trap you can fall in to though, the manufacturers must address this and publish limits, it may well be that the limit still means that a 20kwh pack is still acceptable but at least prospective buyers would know this.

I am hoping that a judge is sympathetic, my Friend had a full refund on a VW golf after 2,000 miles of problems (2 new engines, they rattled) the engines worked but were noisy, he returned the car under sale of goods act, the difference there was that VW recognised that the engines were of poor quality.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
You've had the time use of the car and already covered 800 miles, so I think it's unreasonable to expect that usage to be funded by the manufacturer or dealer.
You are only required to pay for the time you have had the use of the product if you don't reject the goods in a reasonable time-frame... it is not fixed but usually within 4 weeks. I did so if found in my favour I would a full refund.

Alternatively, working the LEAF harder might improve things
It might... then again, it might not. That is the issue. I fully accept that it might improve. My issue is what happens if it doesn't and how long do we leave it before Nissan accepts that it won't and does something about it?

That is not the way to do it. When we buy a car we must have confidence that we are getting what the manufacturer says we should get and what we could reasonably expect. IMO I don't think it unreasonable to expect my new Leaf to have at least the bottom end of the range that most people seem to be getting... i.e. 22kWh. A starting figure of 20.8kWh seems to me like the battery is below standard in some way and I think it reasonable to get it replaced with one that has new capacity.
 

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Fascinating stuff and I wish you well. Buying something as expensive as a £20k car should give you peace of mind. Nissan might prefer not to have to publish what they think the state of a brand new battery is, but really that's the only way to get that peace of mind.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Email from the dealer this afternoon... we are meeting up, probably Friday, to discuss.

It's good to talk :)

I am certain that if JFE Nissan can possibly do anything about it then they will but if Nissan GB are sticking to their guns I really don't know what they can do except swap the car or refund me at their cost or refund me. I hate to do this to JFE because they are without doubt the best car dealer I have ever dealt with and I really want to stay in their good books. I hope they realise that my gripe is really with Nissan GB and not them but legally my only course of redress is through them as they sold me the car.
 

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I finally got an email from Nissan GB today after requesting their policy on storing cars during fault diagnosis and warranty repairs with repairing dealers who have our cars in their keep for potentially several months at a time, in my case over 3 months to identify and fix a charger fault. That didn't bother me as was given a courtesy Leaf, what did is knowing it was left at 100% charge the whole time and seeing the capacity loss on Leafspy when I finally got access to the car! They have suggested I take it to my nearest Nissan Dealer for another battery check which I will do and report back.

They ignored my request for their policy on dealer storage battery SOC so I have asked them again. Sigh..
 
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