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Vauxhall Ampera, 2012 Electron
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Discussion Starter #1
Anyone know if the Kia eNiro is vulnerable to a relay attack - or if Kia have mitigated against that in some manner (movement sensor or similar)
OR should I buy a faraday box to put keys into?

Sean
 

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E-Niro 64kWh '4' since 22/9/20 (was Prius)
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I imagine it will be susceptible. I got a couple of these bags which seem to really work well. My spare fob sits in one bag and my everyday use one sits in the other as soon as I get in. It’s big enough to accommodate extra keys and stuff. There are some smaller ones from the same seller which look similar. I went for the larger ones anyway. With the fob inside the bag you can’t open the door or start the car. Even pressing the lock/unlock buttons has no effect no matter where you place the bag inside or outside, anywhere around the car, windows etc.

Peter
 

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Discussion Starter #3

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Since my gardens are "backwards", my keys are a good 25m from my car with a solid walls in between. I wonder if such a setup is still susceptible?
 

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Kia e-Niro MY20 64 kWh - Gravity Blue
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According to a Which? Magazine survey of manufacturers in May 2020, Kia did not have a fix for relay attacks and would instead sell you a Faraday pouch.
 

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Since my gardens are "backwards", my keys are a good 25m from my car with a solid walls in between. I wonder if such a setup is still susceptible?
The distance is largely irrelevant. The relay is fooling the car into thinking the fob is in proximity. The distance from the fob to outside of your house is more important to prevent the relay communicating with the fob.

Sweet/biscuit tins work well in experience.

Relay attacks
 

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E-Niro 64kWh '4' since 22/9/20 (was Prius)
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I wouldn’t 100% rely on sweet/ biscuit tins etc. In order to properly stop the HF RF completely the lid has to electrically connect all around its circumference. They may or may not be adequate. Also, for what these made for the job pouches cost, why risk it? The pouches have a closed mouth fitting Inner screening bag which folds over itself when closed with the Velcro flap.
That’s my opinion anyway.

Peter
 

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According to a Which? Magazine survey of manufacturers in May 2020, Kia did not have a fix for relay attacks and would instead sell you a Faraday pouch.
It’s a poor show that manufacturers don’t seem to be generally addressing this relay theft issue, which has been known now for some time. AFAIK all that’s needed is a little disabling switch on the fob to effectively turn it completely off when inside the house (or anywhere else too). Presumably that would extend the fob battery life too. Especially so if one fob is never used, but just kept safely as a spare in a cupboard somewhere.

Peter
 

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It’s a poor show that manufacturers don’t seem to be generally addressing this relay theft issue, which has been known now for some time. AFAIK all that’s needed is a little disabling switch on the fob to effectively turn it completely off when inside the house (or anywhere else too). Presumably that would extend the fob battery life too. Especially so if one fob is never used, but just kept safely as a spare in a cupboard somewhere.

Peter
This YouTube item shows how to fit a switch to the fob for a Kona EV
 

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I wouldn’t 100% rely on sweet/ biscuit tins etc. In order to properly stop the HF RF completely the lid has to electrically connect all around its circumference. They may or may not be adequate. Also, for what these made for the job pouches cost, why risk it? The pouches have a closed mouth fitting Inner screening bag which folds over itself when closed with the Velcro flap.
That’s my opinion anyway.

Peter
Its interesting to consider an outline engineering analysis of the fob emitted rf level and the likely screening requirement for reducing the received level at the relay point.
Taking account of
  • the fob is apparently continuously handshaking in the car to initially allow the ON state to be achieved and subsequently be aware if the key is removed from the car
  • the fob battery size, and expected lifetime and the associated available dc power to run its internal handshake transponder
  • the small antenna size in the fob for the frequency involved - probably near 430 MHz
  • inverse square law governing the reduction of radiated signal with distance to the relay point.
 

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It’s a poor show that manufacturers don’t seem to be generally addressing this relay theft issue, which has been known now for some time. AFAIK all that’s needed is a little disabling switch on the fob to effectively turn it completely off when inside the house (or anywhere else too). Presumably that would extend the fob battery life too. Especially so if one fob is never used, but just kept safely as a spare in a cupboard somewhere.

Peter
The best solution IMO is just to have an accelerometer that disables when no movement is detected.
 

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Kia Soul EV 2020
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The best solution IMO is just to have an accelerometer that disables when no movement is detected.
Never going to happen, as simply another thing that can go wrong, extra battery drain, and so on.
 
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Never going to happen, as simply another thing that can go wrong, extra battery drain, and so on.
Eh? MEMS devices are extremely low energy consumption, and incredibly reliable. Many times more reliable than mechanical switch. Nearly every phone made in the last 15 years has had an accelerometer.

You do realise some manufacturers actually have displays on their key fobs?
 

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Eh? MEMS devices are extremely low energy consumption, and incredibly reliable. Many times more reliable than mechanical switch. Nearly every phone made in the last 15 years has had an accelerometer.

You do realise some manufacturers actually have displays on their key fobs?
I'm not sure what is confusing you...please show me a Kia key with a screen? Or what: the fact that a tesla can be unlocked by using a phone has any relevance to this topic? Keep 🆒...
 

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I'm not sure what is confusing you...please show me a Kia key with a screen? Or what: the fact that a tesla can be unlocked by using a phone has any relevance to this topic? Keep 🆒...
You're suggesting an accelerometer will "never happen" because it's unreliable and consumes battery.

MEMS are incredibly reliable, they've been proven in phones for over a decade. Key fob batteries have been used to power key fobs with small display screens on them, like BMW.

I didn't even mention Tesla.
 

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He's just being fussy.... clearly the accelerometer chip is really cheap, but the added cost would probably be adding a microprocessor if there is not one already inside.

I don't know the exact mechanism on how the system works, if the car pings, and the fob responds, or the fob pings, and the car responds.

It would be interesting to know, but i would guess the fob is transmit only, to keep it simple / low cost.

To further this intelligently, does anyone have a reference that states how the proximity part works (pretty clear this is the most dangerous part of the system)

Greg
 

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He's just being fussy.... clearly the accelerometer chip is really cheap, but the added cost would probably be adding a microprocessor if there is not one already inside.

I don't know the exact mechanism on how the system works, if the car pings, and the fob responds, or the fob pings, and the car responds.

It would be interesting to know, but i would guess the fob is transmit only, to keep it simple / low cost.

To further this intelligently, does anyone have a reference that states how the proximity part works (pretty clear this is the most dangerous part of the system)

Greg
I think this detail is probably relevant Kia Niro : Description and operation : Smart Key System
 
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