[Kevin Sharpe]

Does "owning the car but renting the pack put car makers in drivers seat?"

http://www.longtailpipe.com/2014/09/renault-customers-cry-foul-over-battery.html

 

[Robwiz]

and this is why I always advise battery ownership. simpler, more security and far easier to sell on after the term

Simpler and easier for whom? The dealership?

 

[Paul]

the owner. to sell a car with battery lease you have to get the new owner to take on the lease.

To sell a car with battery you have to get the new owner to take on the risk and degradation.

 

[Buzby]

Exactly. I can sleep easy knowing my dealership won't (after the warranty expires) tell me I need a replacement battery pack and I have no ability to find the £5-7k required for the pack AND the transportation recycling and fitting charge which will not be peanuts.

I already followed the purchase route and now the unhappy owner of a Vectrix VX1 which on a full charge manages 6 miles (used to be 70). It is not worthwhile paying the asked for £5500 for a battery exchange, even though this bike is the best I've ever owned.

My car was cheap enough because the battery was excluded - I'm now a happy bunny, as my monthly payment gives me recovery, replacement AND peace of mind.

 

[kentish zoe]

It's a non issue. If you don't like the battery lease then spend the extra money on a leaf or I3 etc.
It suits me just fine

 

[Matt Beard]

It's a non issue. If you don't like the battery lease then spend the extra money on a leaf or I3 etc.
It suits me just fine

Not really - the Leaf and i3 are not the same as a Zoe, Fluence or Twizy

 

[Buzzar]

Had a Leaf as a loaner when Zoe was having her first service (£63) and it was pants compared to Zoe in it's range and driving experience.

 

[osbrook]

Renting should be fine for some. However read the T&Cs on the site and you will see why it is wrong. Effectively Renault will always own the car and the curent owner the battery rental if no one one will take it on, even if you don't have or own the car.

The rules are far too one sided.

 

[kentish zoe]

Not sure where they found those terms and conditions but that's not Renault's Zoe Battery agreement. See attached - if you sell the car you just have to supply buyers name and address to Renault. No garbage about Renault owning your car.
As I said it's a non issue.

 

[andrew*debbie]

According to calculations in the petition, owning a Renault ZOE or Twizy for 5 years or 10 years and you'll pay Renault 2-3 times the battery pack cost in rental fees.

Of course they don't mention the 10-year owner will receive 2 or 3 battery packs from Renault. Renault's rental contract guarantees a replacement pack when the current pack falls below 75% of initial capacity. If Zoe's battery ages like a typical UK Leaf, 75% is going to be somewhere around 65,000 miles.


========================


Leasing the shell and renting the battery does make sense. For LEAF it is often cheaper to lease a flex plan shell and rent the battery. For a leased or PCP car selling the shell is a non-issue. Just hand it back to RCI at the end of the contract.


Renault should give Zoe customers the choice of owning the battery. I'm sure they would sell more cars. Total cost to typical new car owner might be lower with battery rental, but that is beside the point.

They do offer to sell the traction battery with the Kangoo Z.E. Not sure how many customers purchase the battery. I've never seen a used Kangoo Z.E. without a battery lease.

 

[Nick]

Not sure where they found those terms and conditions but that's not Renault's Zoe Battery agreement. See attached - if you sell the car you just have to supply buyers name and address to Renault. No garbage about Renault owning your car.
As I said it's a non issue.

So what happens if In a few years I sell my car to the kid next door, and Renault then decide that he's not credit worthy or fails some other pre-lease check?

 

[kentish zoe]

So what happens if In a few years I sell my car to the kid next door, and Renault then decide that he's not credit worthy or fails some other pre-lease check?

That would be Renault's problem.

"According to calculations in the petition, owning a Renault ZOE or Twizy for 5 years or 10 years and you'll pay Renault 2-3 times the battery pack cost in rental fees."
Clearly written by someone not very good at maths - 60 x £45 = £2700 sounds like a very cheap battery, doh

 

[AndyG]

That would be Renault's problem.

"According to calculations in the petition, owning a Renault ZOE or Twizy for 5 years or 10 years and you'll pay Renault 2-3 times the battery pack cost in rental fees."
Clearly written by someone not very good at maths - 60 x £45 = £2700 sounds like a very cheap battery, doh

How many miles would a battery on £45 a month rental have covered in 5 years?

 

[Robwiz]

How many miles would a battery on £45 a month rental have covered in 5 years?

£45/month is for a maximum of 3000 miles per year. So 15,000.

 

[AndyG]

£45/month is for a maximum of 3000 miles per year. So 15,000.

I would say that Renault would have a problem if they needed to replace their batteries every 15000 miles, so the £45 is not relevant. What is the real cost for the average milage?

 

[Matt Beard]

One of the huge issues to me is that after about 10 years you would expect a secondhand car to be in the £500-£1000 range. This is great for many on more reduced incomes, but how many of them would also expect to pay £840 per year for battery rental? This means that unless Renault change their minds they will be crushing a lot of Zoes. It also means that if you buy a 5-year-old Zoe, and keep it for 4 or 5 years, you probably won't be able to sell it on at the end, or part exchange it. This makes a 5-year-old Zoe more of a problem, which means they will probably be more difficult to sell. Which means that a brand new one today will give you problems in 5 years if you buy rather than lease.

You can see the problem happening already as the Fluence is now an old model without rapid charging and secondhand ones are floating around for apparently good prices. But the battery lease is already acting as a millstone on these.

 

[smartie]

Not really, the lease only says that Renault will restore the capacity back to 75% - they are not obligated to replace with a new pack or restore back to 100%. Assuming average mileage of 10k miles per year that is just one restoration back to 75% capacity over the 10 year period. For that mileage the lease is about £100 per month so you would be paying £12,000 in battery lease payments for the priviledge if having your battery lease restored back to 75% once in 10 years.

Of course they don't mention the 10-year owner will receive 2 or 3 battery packs from Renault. Renault's rental contract guarantees a replacement pack when the current pack falls below 75% of initial capacity. If Zoe's battery ages like a typical UK Leaf, 75% is going to be somewhere around 65,000 miles.


========================


Leasing the shell and renting the battery does make sense. For LEAF it is often cheaper to lease a flex plan shell and rent the battery. For a leased or PCP car selling the shell is a non-issue. Just hand it back to RCI at the end of the contract.


Renault should give Zoe customers the choice of owning the battery. I'm sure they would sell more cars. Total cost to typical new car owner might be lower with battery rental, but that is beside the point.

They do offer to sell the traction battery with the Kangoo Z.E. Not sure how many customers purchase the battery. I've never seen a used Kangoo Z.E. without a battery lease.

 

[Robwiz]

But looking at the battery rental is only half the story. If a potential buyer is currently spending more than £70 per month on fuel they could be better off with a Zoe assuming the car is reliable.

For all EVs, the big uncertainty is whether an expensive electronics module fails that makes the car uneconomic to repair. For a car with a battery lease, how would you deal with that? You can't just call the scrapper because the battery isn't yours.

 

[kentish zoe]

I have quoted the lease below, they guarantee to repair or replace the battery. It would clearly be insane for them to restore the battery to 75% as they would then be liable for a further repair if it dropped by just 1%.
£12000 plus 15k purchase = £27000 for ten years. Compared to the alternatives ? And you can have that money working for you in the meantime...

Not really, the lease only says that Renault will restore the capacity back to 75% - they are not obligated to replace with a new pack or restore back to 100%. Assuming average mileage of 10k miles per year that is just one restoration back to 75% capacity over the 10 year period. For that mileage the lease is about £100 per month so you would be paying £12,000 in battery lease payments for the priviledge if having your battery lease restored back to 75% once in 10 years.

.3 We shall provide you with a Battery that has sufficient charging capacity for the term of this Hire Agreement and any extension to the term. The charging threshold is 75% of the Batterys original capacity. 7.4 You may, at your own expense, instruct a ZE After-Sales Service centre to carry out a battery charging diagnostic to test the capacity of the Battery. Should such diagnostic test determine that the Battery threshold capacity is lower than that in clause 7.3, we shall, at our discretion, either: 7.4. replace the Battery; repair the Battery; or provide such other mutually acceptable solution.

 

[smartie]

I have quoted the lease below, they guarantee to repair or replace the battery. It would clearly be insane for them to restore the battery to 75% as they would then be liable for a further repair if it dropped by just 1%.
£12000 plus 15k purchase = £27000 for ten years. Compared to the alternatives ? And you can have that money working for you in the meantime...

.3 We shall provide you with a Battery that has sufficient charging capacity for the term of this Hire Agreement and any extension to the term. The charging threshold is 75% of the Batterys original capacity. 7.4 You may, at your own expense, instruct a ZE After-Sales Service centre to carry out a battery charging diagnostic to test the capacity of the Battery. Should such diagnostic test determine that the Battery threshold capacity is lower than that in clause 7.3, we shall, at our discretion, either: 7.4. replace the Battery; repair the Battery; or provide such other mutually acceptable solution.

This does not state that they will replace with a new battery or restore to 100%.

Here is the link to the Renualt website for the Zoe battery lease which states

The battery hire agreement guarantees you a minimum charge capacity* and full recovery services in the event of all types of breakdown.

* Charge capacity of 75% of the original capacity at delivery.

http://www.renault.co.uk/cars/electric-vehicles/zoe/zoe/zebattery/

So they are only obligated to restore back to 75%.