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Regarding the Zoe, do they all make the sometimes reported whining noise when charging? Our cars are parked below our bedroom window, and I've not consider the Zoe previously because I was concerned I might be able to hear it when charging at night. Our current LEAF and C-Zero are silent.
Yes there's a distinct whine when charging a Zoe. I think it's an artefact of their somewhat unusual method of charge operation, so they all do it (to my knowledge). It's not very loud, but might not be ideal under an open bedroom window in a quiet location. Also Zoe is very much more sensitive to earthing conditions, I think for the same reasons. We had to have our earth rods upgraded to get reliable charging in dry weather.
 

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Discussion Starter · #22 · (Edited)
I believe the 1st generation model (cream interior) is "to be avoided", as the boot is compromised by a hump in the floor where the charging equipment went, and also by an unreliable electric handbrake. I think this was also the original battery chemistry which was improved by the time production was switched from Japan to UK.

The earlier Zoe is a 22kWh battery, so substantially less range than the 40kWh you drove. I think the 40 version also has a slightly more powerful motor.



I think the jump is from 21kWh usable to 27kWh usable (when new). You can expect an annual average of 4m/kWh, so the extra 6 kWh is 24 miles. Might not sound like a lot, but in real world use it makes quite a difference. Basically at the point where you'd be stopped to charge or getting nervous in the smaller battery (15%) you'll still have 35-40 miles showing on the bigger one. I test drove a 24 and bought a 30, if that helps :)
This is exactly what I have been thinking which is why I am gearing towards 30kwh. Although I hear that 30kwh battery degrades quicker than 24kwh!!
 

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This is exactly what I have been thinking which is why I am hearing towards 30kwh. Although I hear that 30kwh battery degrades quicker than 24kwh!!
🤷‍♂️ I think it depends who you ask.

There was an update to the BMS which apparently corrected an over-reporting of degradation on the 30 version, and I would expect that all applicable cars would have that now.

Mine was a 2016 and had done 55,000 miles and was on 86%. Given that degradation is part use and part age that doesn't seem too bad. Rate of degradations slows with time, I believe. For that particular battery I reckon it would get to at least 125,000 miles before your range requirements would be an issue...
 

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Speaking as a Zoe owner... I think they look much nicer than the Leaf (sorry but must admit I don't like driving something I consider aesthetically displeasing but of course it's subjective), the boot in a Zoe is basically the TARDIS, you're unlikely to have any problem putting a buggy in it. Very nice to drive and good range, I remember from research that people report moderately better range than on the 24kWh Leaf but it's probably closer with the 30kWh.

Downsides are the heating/cooling system can be very loud in the peak of winter/summer especially a pre-heat cycle. Louder than most ICE engines when it's working at its hardest, and can be irritating if parked just outside. And yes there's a high pitched whine when you charge, because it uses the motor coils. This is something you either won't notice (out of range for the age of your ears), won't really care about (that's me), or will despise (if you're one of those people with a dog's ears. You'll know if you are - I have a friend like this and he gets very wound up about any sort of high pitched noises, buzzes etc). The suspension is also notorious so budget to regularly swap out roll bar drop links etc.

You can buy out the battery if you prefer. I decided to keep the lease to make the purchase price affordable, and it works out that I'd need to keep it something like 8+ years before the cost of the lease would've exceeded the cost difference for battery owned at the time of purchase.

Charging depends. In the Leaf you have more options for rapid charging as Chademo isn't being axed from rapids as quickly as AC which the Zoe uses (so do slow charging PHEVs, so people are keen to see AC removed from rapids). But if it's a secondary car for shorter journeys, the 22kW AC of the Zoe offers faster charging at some destinations. For your purposes it sounds like the Zoe is fine.

If going for a Zoe then if possible get one still under warranty (not sure if this applies to any 22kWh models at this point though) or in a private sale where the warranty has been extended and the seller knows how to transfer it to you. Reliability is on the lower side of EVs (google the WhatCar study), I wouldn't want to own one without it myself, though there are more independent repair options nowadays to be fair. The official Renault Car Care warranty covers suspension issues as long as the mileage is reasonable, but don't count on this, as it relies on your dealer being willing to phone them up for authorisation. Many will just tell you it's a wear and tear item and not even be willing to try.
Worth knowing that around Mid-Late 2015 they got a small revamp (and trim level name changes, Dynamique Intens became Dynamique Nav etc), slightly more efficient motor (allegedly) now made by Renault themselves rather than Continental, darker dashboard (a safety recall you can probably get done free, but an added hassle) and I think a few other little tweaks. I purposefully went for one of that age.
 
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We're happy with our 24kWh Nissan Leaf as a family commuting car. There is lots of length and height in the cabin so we can have a bulky rotating baby seat behind either driver no problem.

Rear sear width is fine for four people, tight for five. For short trips we've squeezed 3 adults & 2 children using seat belts without isofix on their chairs, but that is tight. Getting 3 child seats in the back is apparently possible, but you'll have to be very selective on the child seats.

The boot is good, just big enough for one 16" wheel child's bike. We never bothered with a buggy and use a sling instead (very cosy which is great in winter).
 

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Thanks all for your advice/comments. So I'm wondering if it's worth paying 2k more for a 30kwh leaf @45000miles compared to a 24kwh model with similar mileage, perhaps a year older model. Question here is : is there going to be a significant improvement with mileage to quell some of that range anxiety?! Has anyone here used both battery models to help me decide? I would tend to go for a car with 12 battery bars or at worst 11.
The 30kwh has more range for sure it's down to the range you require if the 24kwh will suit your range requirements you can save a bit of money.

The main point is to make sure you get one with a decent battery. Definately need a Leafspy reading. If you check on here there is loads on this on the battery health thread. I wouldn't buy one without 12 bars and a decent Leafspy reading but obviously budget dependent.

When I bought ours at the start of the year the price difference 24kwh / 30kwh was around £1000 and it was a slighter newer car with less miles from a main dealer so no brainer.

Price of used cars seems to have gone up though and in shorter supply so no idea what price differential is now.
 

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This is exactly what I have been thinking which is why I am gearing towards 30kwh. Although I hear that 30kwh battery degrades quicker than 24kwh!!
This is a myth bourne out mainly from owners in warm weather countries. If you look at the degradation graphs on the battery health thread on here it simply is not the case.
 

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Regarding the Zoe, do they all make the sometimes reported whining noise when charging? Our cars are parked below our bedroom window, and I've not consider the Zoe previously because I was concerned I might be able to hear it when charging at night. Our current LEAF and C-Zero are silent.
I've had the ze20, ze40 and now own a Ze50 none of mine made a noise when charging on my home charger.. I've noticed fan noises when on 22kw and above rapid chargers.. others might say differently of course.
 

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I believe the 1st generation model (cream interior) is "to be avoided", as the boot is compromised by a hump in the floor where the charging equipment went, and also by an unreliable electric handbrake. I think this was also the original battery chemistry which was improved by the time production was switched from Japan to UK.
Also, the Gen 1 Leaf used a coolant based PTC heater with no heat pump. That means there was a water heater mounted under the 12v battery which heats a coolant loop which pumps hot coolant through a regular heater matrix. This is the same method used by the i-Miev/Ion/C-Zero, and is very slow to heat up and inefficient due to heat loss in this process and a lot of thermal mass which must be heated up.

Furthermore a lot of the Gen 1 PTC heaters are failing from what I've seen online as they have a bit of a design/manufacturing flaw in them that makes them prone to failing.

Tekna and Acenta Gen2 Leaf's not only have a heat pump, (for much better efficiency in the winter) the PTC heater they have which supplements the heat pump during times of high demand is a direct air heater which is fast to heat up and more reliable. (Eg works like a fan heater or hair dryer with a low mass element directly heating the airflow)

Personally I would not buy a Gen1 Leaf for quite a few reasons, there are a lot of differences between Gen1 and Gen2 cars.
I think the jump is from 21kWh usable to 27kWh usable (when new). You can expect an annual average of 4m/kWh, so the extra 6 kWh is 24 miles. Might not sound like a lot, but in real world use it makes quite a difference. Basically at the point where you'd be stopped to charge or getting nervous in the smaller battery (15%) you'll still have 35-40 miles showing on the bigger one. I test drove a 24 and bought a 30, if that helps :)
I also have the 30 and your point is a very good one - if you want to keep a fixed size "comfort buffer" at the bottom end, lets say 20 miles, (to allow for broken chargers, unexpected diversions, bad weather etc etc) this magnifies the usable difference in range considerably in terms of percentage.

If you have say 75 miles range from 100% down to 0% on the 24kWh and 100 miles on the 30kWh and only want to drive until you have 20 miles left, that is only 55 miles of usable range on the 24kWh and 80 miles on the 30kWh.

So instead of the 30kWh only having 33% more range, it's 45% more usable range while maintaining that comfort buffer, and for any given trip that is within range of the 24kWh you'll have an additional 25 miles left over with the 30kWh - doesn't sound like a lot but it makes a big difference.
 

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I've had the ze20, ze40 and now own a Ze50 none of mine made a noise when charging on my home charger.. I've noticed fan noises when on 22kw and above rapid chargers.. others might say differently of course.
My ZE50 makes a high-pitched whine (coil whine?) when charging on AC, but that's inaudible more than 1-2m away. Like yourself, I've only heard the fans kick in when rapid charging.
 

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I've had the ze20, ze40 and now own a Ze50 none of mine made a noise when charging on my home charger.. I've noticed fan noises when on 22kw and above rapid chargers.. others might say differently of course.
All Zoes make this noise when charging on AC. It's a very high frequency sound though, so those that don't have the most sensitive hearing may not notice it at all.
 

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We're happy with our 24kWh Nissan Leaf as a family commuting car. There is lots of length and height in the cabin so we can have a bulky rotating baby seat behind either driver no problem.

Rear sear width is fine for four people, tight for five. For short trips we've squeezed 3 adults & 2 children using seat belts without isofix on their chairs, but that is tight. Getting 3 child seats in the back is apparently possible, but you'll have to be very selective on the child seats.
We have a booster seat for a 5 year old in our Leaf 30 - plenty of room to spare between him and the seat in front of him for years to come, certainly compared to the Peugeot Ion it replaced which was pretty tight and only allowed a child seat in the back with the seat in front of it well forward. Can't comment on the Zoe as I've never been in one.

I'm 6 foot and tend to drive with the seat quite far back, with the seat in my normal driving position I can sit in the rear seat behind it in comfort without my knees touching the seat, although there isn't a lot of gap left, maybe a couple of inches. In fact I find the rear seat more comfortable than the drivers seat - I find the drivers seat a bit uncomfortable due to the narrow pointy bolsters on the base and I have added a bit of extra padding and seat cover on the base - so check drivers seat comfort carefully before buying a Leaf as they are not the most comfortable seats depending on your body shape...

The rear seat will take three but it would be really tight IMO unless at least one of them is a child, and you won't fit a booster seat/baby seat on one side and two adults at the same time - which I can just manage in my similarly sized ICE. One reason is the anchor point for the seatbelt for the middle passenger is too far to the left and is actually behind where a booster/baby seat sits so is completely obscured by it.
The boot is good, just big enough for one 16" wheel child's bike. We never bothered with a buggy and use a sling instead (very cosy which is great in winter).
The boot is pretty big in the Leaf - about 370 litres which is about 30 litres bigger than the boot in my ICE which is the same length/width car as the Leaf. However countering that the boot is a pretty odd shape with a lot of intrusion from from the suspension struts, Bose subwoofer (only in the Tekna) and there is a huge step between the boot floor and the rear seats when they are folded down that together with the suspension strut intrusion make it pretty useless at carrying large flat packed furniture and the like.

Additionally while the rear seat is 60/40 split - unlike all Zoe's prior to the 50kWh which have a single rear seat back, the split is the wrong way around for a RHD market, eg the narrow side is on the right instead of the left like it is in my ICE. That coupled with the wide intrusion from the suspension struts makes folding just the right hand side down (if you have a child on the left) a bit pointless.

So the summary for the boot is if you're not folding the seats down much and you're mainly filling the boot with squishy things or things that will conform to the shape of the boot (bags, clothes, groceries, lots of small items etc) then the boot in the Leaf is cavernous. However if you're wanting to fold the rear seats down and/or fit large objects that are wide or long the boot is not very good compared to some other cars due to the shape and the large step in the floor with the seats down.
 

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This is exactly what I have been thinking which is why I am gearing towards 30kwh. Although I hear that 30kwh battery degrades quicker than 24kwh!!
There are two versions of the 30 kWh battery too, lol.
 

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Whomever told you that you'd get 60-80miles in Winter was lying to you, or they live in the south of France. In the UK expect no more than 60miles in winter if you don't like freezing. @80 in Summer and @60 in winter is pretty accurate in normal driving. If you drive slow and steady you'll get more in Summer, but not so much in winter.

I won't comment on the practicalities of the Leaf. But the Zoe will easily take a buggy, I had a full system buggy, similar to the 3 in ones from Cassato now, obviously these come apart rather than collapse but taking off the pram bit then collapsing the base it would chuck straight in. Taking off the big back wheels would see it take up even less space. And using the car for holidays was possible. Whole system buggy in the boot and a ton of other stuff, as well as a roofbox up top full of baggage with clothes.
145727


Getting baby into the back was easy too, and the dark tinted rear windows makes a world of difference in the Zoe.

One accidental safety feature of the Zoe is when your kids get a bit bigger they won't be able to "accidentally" turn off the handbrake or engage a gear as the Gen1 Zoe has a proper manual handbrake and a proper gear selector with a trigger that needs to be pulled to disengage park.
 
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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
The 30kwh has more range for sure. The main point is to make sure you get one with a decent battery. Definately need a Leafspy reading. If you check on here there is loads on this on the battery health thread.

When I bought ours at the start of the year the price difference 24kwh / 30kwh was around £1000 and it was a slighter newer car with less miles from a main dealer so no brainer.

Price of used cars seems to have gone up though and in shorter supply so no idea what price differential is now.
 

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Please find the enclosed link to a previous Speak EV thread that may be helpful.

Leaf 24 --> 30 --> going 40 | Speak EV - Electric Car Forums

This dongle I use with an APPLE IPhone - there might be better ones for android.


Link to some guidance for how to operate LeafSpy PDF - its about £20 for the LeafSpy Pro App - you can down load the basic LeafSpy App for free at it gives you the basic battery cell screen which is all you need to do a basic battery check.


Leaf 24 --> 30 --> going 40 | Speak EV - Electric Car Forums
 

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Discussion Starter · #38 ·
Please find the enclosed link to a previous Speak EV thread that may be helpful.

Leaf 24 --> 30 --> going 40 | Speak EV - Electric Car Forums

This dongle I use with an APPLE IPhone - there might be better ones for android.


Link to some guidance for how to operate LeafSpy PDF - its about £20 for the LeafSpy Pro App - you can down load the basic LeafSpy App for free at it gives you the basic battery cell screen which is all you need to do a basic battery check.


Leaf 24 --> 30 --> going 40 | Speak EV - Electric Car Forums
Thank you..this is really useful :)
 

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I have a 22kW Zoe and a 40kW they are both good cars.

Nissan leafs are generally pretty sound but can suffer from failing suspension top mounts because the fill up with water, if the batteries have been abused they can have issues but this is less of a problem in the Uk climate.

My Zoe is battery leased but this gives you a perpetual battery warranty so it has its advantages, as mentioned you can always pay the lease off so you own the battery.

it also has the advantage that you get to buy the Zoe and if the battery is a lemon it’s Renault’s problem, not yours.

once you know it’s a good one then you can pay it off if you wish.

I would advise getting a Q210 Zoe if range is a concern not the slightly later R190 because the Q210 can be rapid charged at 43kW so you can pretty much recharge in around 25 minutes on the correct charger and you have another 70 - 80 (ish) miles of range in warmer weather. The R190 takes an hour to do this.

Things to look out for on a 30 Leaf (as far as I’m aware) are as follows:

They didn’t all have 7kW onboard chargers, this was an upgrade, they also didn’t all have DC rapid charging (CHAdeMo) this may have become standard on the 30’s but it definitely wasn’t on the 24, make sure yours has it.

I would want both of these things on a 30 leaf.

When I purchased my Zoe I actually chose one that had a few simple issues to fix as it was really cheap and I quite enjoy doing things like that.

Here are the things you should know if looking at a used Zoe (this is copied and pasted from another thread):

First and foremost they have an issue with the drainage from the windscreen into the scuttle where the bottom of the wiper arms are, this is common to many Renaults (not just the Zoe) but this is what happens:

The water runs off the windscreen through the scuttle when it rains into a big metal tray that runs the full width of the car this tray has 2 drains either side that allow it to flow out over the inner wheel arches and onto the road at the back of the front wheels.

These drains block up with leaves, and general detritus and cause the tray to fill up with water this then fills the top of the front suspension top mounts and kills the bearings and causes them to fail if its very severely blocked it also overflows through the back of the tray and runs under the back of the dash board into the front footwells of the car and causes wet carpets.

When you go and look at a Zoe feel up behind the pedals and check the carpets are dry.

Also drive one at slow speed and turn the steering wheel from lock to lock and listen for creaking / squeaking noises and feel for juddering through the wheel.

This is a sign that the front suspension top mounts have failed, I replaced my own but just the bits were £160 (I used the best quality) and it took 4 hours to do this along with cleaning out the drains / tray.

Zoe's also suffer from failed anti roll bar drop links, this is a common problem take a test drive and drive over all of the uneven bits small pot holes and deep manhole covers that you would usually drive round and listen for a knocking sound, these bits are fortunately super cheap and easy to replace mine cost £18 and took me 30 minutes to fit.

Last but not least the Zoe had 2 charging covers the Renault badge one that pops open when you press the key and an inner one that keeps the water out of the charge port.

The inner one is prone to failing because it is spring loaded with a metal pin that runs through flimsy plastic, the lubrication dries out on this and it makes the inner flap stiff, in her this then wears and snaps the bit of plastic that carries the hinge pin.

If this happens and your Zoe loses its inner weather flap you have 2 options:

1) buy a rubber BMW I3 cover for £46! and stick that in there or take it to Renault and spent £600 having the charge socket replaced.

I purchased a used charging harness and fitted it myself for £110, this does however mean that you should really isolate the main 400V battery ling for safety while doing this.
 

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My range estimation matches that of @Sandy roughly but pretty sure I'd be able to stretch it to 90 miles in proper summer (20C upwards) keeping the speed at 60 and under most of the time (bursts of 65-70 for overtakes)

Indicated SOH is 83%, though I think that's the overall pack SOH (23.somethingkwh) as it still lets me use over 21kWh, while shouting at me.

Seen people in the club saying 80 miles in winter and 110 in summer and have no idea how. Either my battery is badly worn after all, or something is causing a lot of resistance on the car, or they only ever drive around at 40mph...
 
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