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Realism, yes. Focusing on the worst possible case, that is far removed from realism.

It could be just me, but I do prefer to try to understand the various factors that can impact performance, both good and bad. Once I do that, I have the tools to manage the performance that I'm achieving from my car. I can improve or destroy the range depending on my trip requirements.

So, a general statement like EV can do anything from X to Y miles is pointless. It is a car and I can safely say that it will do anything between 0 and 10000000miles. And I will be correct. Please dispute!

And finally, I'm not trying to pretend or fake anything. My knowledge/experience is my own. And conversely, I'm not concerned what other people achieve or do not achieve in their own cars. If I see something that will help me improve, I will test it out. But I do prefer to focus on spreading different ways of achieving better performance. Not publicising "10 ways of how not to drive an EV". Not because of hypocrisy, but because I myself want to be helpful to others.
I don’t think it was focussing on the worst possible case, it was more the insistence from some that a Kona couldn’t possibly achieve such a low number unless you were driving it like an idiot.

I think it is helpful to be honest about how bad things might get, especially if you’re new to EVs, the restraint required to get the advertised range is often counter intuitive when the car is effortlessly trying to meet the horizon!

It’s up to folks to learn the finer points of their car and their journeys, of course it is, which is why it’s good to get a range of views before taking an expensive leap.

Where you live has a big bearing, an EV that spends most of its time pottering around then lanes of Devon will get different numbers to one plying motorways all day as will the one being used in the highlands where it’s colder and wetter for more of the year than most places.
 

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Focusing on the worst possible case, that is far removed from realism.
My journey yesterday really did happen and the weather (in May!) really was such that I would have had an issue doing 200 miles in one hit at 68mph - despite it being far from the worst possible case and contrary to what plenty of Kona/Soul/Niro fans have tried to claim on here.

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VW, in line with all manufacturers, are just quoting the official tested WLTP figures.

Real world range will be in the region of 185 to 270 miles, dependent on a lot of factors.

As the OPs journey will have been nothing like the WLTP test, he quite understandably got nothing like the WLTP figures.
[Sigh] For the last time, this was a simple clarification of a statement.

The original statement was "Good the ID4 also appears to do better in "real world" than it claims too..... ", which didn't specify what 'it' was... I took it to mean the quoted range, whereas the author simply meant that the car did better than an inaccurate piece of software. This was clarified quite a way up the thread.
 

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My only long distance experience was when I collected my E-Niro, started with 269 showing on the GOM, I drove 186 miles and arrived home with 62 showing on the GOM the 'consumption was 3.8. It was motorway or dual carriageway all the way and I was doing 70 mostly, not using the cruise control as I hadn't figured the car out at that stage. Conditions were dry and probably around 10 degrees.

As I understand things rain can reduce things but then if it's raining I'm probably not going to be doing 70 more likely 60.
 

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[Sigh] For the last time, this was a simple clarification of a statement.

The original statement was "Good the ID4 also appears to do better in "real world" than it claims too..... ", which didn't specify what 'it' was... I took it to mean the quoted range, whereas the author simply meant that the car did better than an inaccurate piece of software. This was clarified quite a way up the thread.
There’s no need to sigh, I understood very well what was meant, the benefit of such an exchange is for more people than just you and I.

It’s a discussion forum.
 

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driving it like an idiot
Apparently driving at 68mph into a headwind when it’s raining is “not suitable” so maybe it also constitutes driving like an idiot in the eyes of some :LOL:
 

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Apparently driving at 68mph into a headwind when it’s raining is “not suitable” so maybe it also constitutes driving like an idiot in the eyes of some :LOL:
You’re mad as a mad thing, you! 😂
 

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Apparently driving at 68mph into a headwind when it’s raining is “not suitable” so maybe it also constitutes driving like an idiot in the eyes of some :LOL:
I don't see it as someone driving like an idiot or not, more that driving an EV is a new experience to most of us and we don't realise how personal that experience really is, and that to extrapolate your experience to answer someone else's range question is potentially quite tricky.

My own EV does the same journey of 62 miles every day my wife is at work. Same car, driven on the same route by the same person - so within those limits, very stable conditions. However, that car does the journey with 180 miles of range in summer and 120 in the depths of winter. We have seen that rain, wind and temperature all have an influence.

So if I live in Inverness and I ask someone who lives in Marbella what range I can expect then even if they drive the same car as me and the same split of motorway/urban and drive at the same speed, their range answer will almost certainly be optimistic compared to what I can really expect in Inverness.
 

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I don't see it as someone driving like an idiot or not, more that driving an EV is a new experience to most of us and we don't realise how personal that experience really is, and that to extrapolate your experience to answer someone else's range question is potentially quite tricky.

My own EV does the same journey of 62 miles every day my wife is at work. Same car, driven on the same route by the same person - so within those limits, very stable conditions. However, that car does the journey with 180 miles of range in summer and 120 in the depths of winter. We have seen that rain, wind and temperature all have an influence.

So if I live in Inverness and I ask someone who lives in Marbella what range I can expect then even if they drive the same car as me and the same split of motorway/urban and drive at the same speed, their range answer will almost certainly be optimistic compared to what I can really expect in Inverness.
I completely agree - and that’s why I normally just say use ABRP.

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There then inevitably follows a stream of mostly irrelevant anecdotes, but which I guess maybe makes everyone feel all warm inside about the car they drive and maybe also spent £35k+ on.. :LOL:

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Part of me does wonder if maybe some people, maybe subconsciously, like to be regale optimistic musings about things like range because they, in many cases, will have invested a large sum of money into the car they own and it’s perhaps in their interests for there to be a widely held, very positive view of its capabilities, even if that view isn’t necessarily totally accurate.
 

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If your regular speed is a genuine 70, and you're happy with your m/kWh, then driving at that speed into a 10 mph headwind is going to increase your consumption by something close to 30%. And that's a direct, straight-ahead headwind. If it's actually slighty from the side, that makes it worse.

Drive into a straight-ahead 20 mph headwind at your regular 70, you can expect your consumption to go up by something close to 65%. And if that's a bit off to one side, then it's even worse.

Drive a 50 into a 20 mph headwind, you can expect whatever m/kWh you usually get when driving at 70 on a windless day. Tyre hysteresis losses may be lower at 50, but you're going to be in the car longer & using a bit more electricity to heat as a result.

So as others have said, the actual m/kWh you get is very variable indeed, and the wind is perhaps the most variation-inducing factor there is. Hills also have an extremely detrimental effect when going up, but not many complain about these, because once you're familiar with your own hills, it's then predictable, routine, & well understood. Not so much with the wind though!

Driving on a windless day is great, because the wind is always coming at you directly head-on, so you don't get the rather large increases in drag thanks to side-winds. The car is always driving in the most aerodynamic configuration for it. Imagine how far aeroplanes would (not) get, if they tried flying angled 10 degrees to the airflow the whole time...

Wind drag is quadratic with speed, and if it hits your car at an angle, that increases turbulence (= more drag) as well as increasing the cross-sectional area the wind "sees" rather rapidly. And I expect the side-forces from the wind will cause more "slippage" at the tyre-to-road interface, so a bit more frictional loss there. There is always some "slippage" when a tyre is applying traction forces to a road, they cannot operate without it. More slippage = less distance travelled for the work expended. It all adds up.
 

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the wind is perhaps the most variation-inducing factor there is.
Yes, yes, yes. I’ve said it on here in the past a few times - people don’t pay enough attention to wind.

It can potentially happen in any season, it doesn’t care what setting you have the climate on etc and it can have a huge impact on efficiency - especially, if as it often does, it comes along with a dollop of rain too.

I did the same stretch as I did yesterday 10 days ago when it was similar temperature but with no wind and dry. Despite cruise being set a little higher, the efficiency was approx. 30% higher than in yesterday’s conditions.

(Btw - I knew there was nothing wrong with my car - it’s just that according to the Kona fans it’s practically impossible to get less than 200 motorway miles out of one even in deep winter..)

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In my regular commute, i've had the LEAF down to 2mi/kwh on numerous occasions thru winter. At first i spent a lot of time thinking "how exactly is my car so bad?!", wondering if the car was infact faulty or something.

But nope. Folks just drive differently. Both in terms of the exact route, topographics, average speed etc, and also driving style. I refuse to moderate or adjust my driving style "because its an EV". It gets driven like any other vehicle. And when driven like that, the LEAF aint doing 3+ mi/kwh on a cold wet winters day, regardless of what folk on here might like to claim.

And its not because i drive like some sort of maniac doing 100mph, I generally complete most of the journey on cruise control, set to 70mph on the GPS (which in a LEAF requires 77-78mph on the dashboard). Maybe the odd blip above that to complete an overtake or if i end up playing yoyo with someone that has poor throttle control. But for example i find the LEAF pretty slow, so every accelleration opportunity generally requires full power. Just getting out my town there are 3 or 4 roundabouts where your braking to 0, circumnavigating it, then accellerating up to 70mph again for instance. I use the heater like i would in an ICE, with a decent fan speed and nice warm temperature. etc etc.

Never driven one of the Korean EV's, would be quite interesting to see what they manage with me driving. I'd be quite surprised if i got anywhere near the figures people on here are claiming though.

I think its important to maintain a semblance of balance when making claims. I find that generally people on here "quote high", and because many folks on here seem to be from a section of drivers who do drive fairly sedately and calmly, or get an EV and for whatever reason drive differently than they would in an ICE, it creates a bit of an echo chamber type effect. The expectation even follows with people being told they're "driving wrong" when they dont manage to get the mileage other drivers do, as though an EV should be driven in its own special way.
 

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One of the reasons I think I do “quite well” for m/KWh is the WAY I use regen - I try and anticipate a but further up the road, and try and regen at the middle rate for longer.

I may be wrong, but I think the battery will accept more of this power than a higher regen rate for a shorter distance? The other effect is sometimes the red light changes to green so rather than 60 - stop - 60 again, I might go 60-30 - 60 again over a greater distance. I also don’t slow as much for corners as some might.... momentum maintenance I think you’d call it - is that more efficient (obviously almost irrelevant on a motorway)....?
 

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One of the reasons I think I do “quite well” for m/KWh is the WAY I use regen - I try and anticipate a but further up the road, and try and regen at the middle rate for longer.

I may be wrong, but I think the battery will accept more of this power than a higher regen rate for a shorter distance? The other effect is sometimes the red light changes to green so rather than 60 - stop - 60 again, I might go 60-30 - 60 again over a greater distance. I also don’t slow as much for corners as some might.... momentum maintenance I think you’d call it - is that more efficient (obviously almost irrelevant on a motorway)....?
I’m sorry but this is all completely irrelevant on a motorway (and also the vast majority of dual carriageway A roads) - which is where range at higher speeds at either side of 70 is under consideration.
 

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I think its important to maintain a semblance of balance when making claims. I find that generally people on here "quote high", and because many folks on here seem to be from a section of drivers who do drive fairly sedately and calmly, or get an EV and for whatever reason drive differently than they would in an ICE, it creates a bit of an echo chamber type effect. The expectation even follows with people being told they're "driving wrong" when they dont manage to get the mileage other drivers do, as though an EV should be driven in its own special way.
Exactly right - and this is why I sort of take exception when people claim things like 'it takes huge effort to get less than 220 miles out of a Kona even in deep winter' or 'less than 200 just does not happen', or that they 'can’t see “you” having any issue doing 200 miles all year round on the motorway'…. what they all mean, but don’t say, is that they personally have this experience, but they seem to want to project that onto other people, and it then it inevitably turns out it’s because they drive behind lorries or at busy times in heavy traffic etc etc.

For whatever reason some people just seem very reluctant to accept that the efficiency and range can quite easily be much, much less if the conditions are particularly sub-optimal.

Just because they haven’t personally completed a journey in such sub-optimal conditions at 68mph or whatever it may be they seem to refuse to accept the physics involved and take offence at the suggestion that the Kona / Soul or whatever it may be is in fact less capable than they seem to want to believe.
 

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The difference is, people like me are offering advice which can be applicable to anyone - ie. that if you drive on a motorway at X mph in Y car then you will not be able to do Z miles without stopping if the weather is as unfavourable as it reasonably can be in the UK.

Whereas, lots of people essentially say stuff like “I have never got less 220 or whatever miles so you won’t either”…. which is just rubbish, frankly, as they have no way of predicting the weather and traffic levels that other people will encounter.
 

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For whatever reason some people just seem very reluctant to accept that the efficiency and range can quite easily be much, much less if the conditions are particularly sub-optimal.

Just because they haven’t personally completed a journey in such sub-optimal conditions at 68mph or whatever it may be they seem to refuse to accept the physics involved and take offence at the suggestion that the Kona / Soul or whatever it may be is in fact less capable than they seem to want to believe.
I was intrigued to see if anyones tried to do some real world testing with fairly controlled conditions, ie same driver, same test route etc.


If we look at these results, we see that the Kona and Niro arent particularly outliers. For instance 90kph summer has them largely inline with the LEAF and Tesla. Infact, in the Winter tests, the VW Golf beat the Kona and Soul by a decent amount.

And his range tests:


Show ranges well below 200miles for the Kona and Soul in winter.
 

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Show ranges well below 200miles for the Kona and Soul in winter.
Indeed - I’ve refrained from posting about Bjørn’s findings though because his winter results for the high speed Kona test was in -13°C and I’m sure people would be quick to claim that’s too extreme to be considered as a realistic worst case for the UK.

But in any event, I suspect wind is probably a more significant factor, at least unless you get to extremely cold temperatures - and as I found yesterday, strong winds (and rain) can happen at just about any time of year.
 

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One of the reasons I think I do “quite well” for m/KWh is the WAY I use regen - I try and anticipate a but further up the road, and try and regen at the middle rate for longer.

I may be wrong, but I think the battery will accept more of this power than a higher regen rate for a shorter distance? The other effect is sometimes the red light changes to green so rather than 60 - stop - 60 again, I might go 60-30 - 60 again over a greater distance. I also don’t slow as much for corners as some might.... momentum maintenance I think you’d call it - is that more efficient (obviously almost irrelevant on a motorway)....?
Its not that the battery is less capable of accepting the higher regen, simply that regen itself is inefficient, and thus using less means less energy is lost. By lifting early and running down the speed much slower, you overall regen less energy, and on top of that have travelled slower (which again uses less energy) for more of the journey. I mean, in general its good advice. Personally I CBA with it, as at faster junctions/intersections lifting super early and letting the car regen down means you end up going annoyingly slow for far too long.

Most of that is redundant on a motorway though, its far more likely to be a concern if your doing a lot of urban driving in an area which has a lot of faster roads (say somewhere like Milton Keynes), at which point range isnt really comparable anyway.
 
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