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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Received an anonymous tip-off there's an "electric Clio 2019". I wasn't sure of this information so did some Googling.

Found: Nicole? It's the new 2019 Renault Clio, spied on test
Full electric Clio EV version mooted
..and an old post on 2019 Renault Clio To Get An Electrified Version, Likely A Plug-In Hybrid.

Putting it all together.. combined with the wording on the CCS announcements for a 2019 "vehicle" very delicately not saying it will be a Zoe ("By 2019, our vehicles will adopt the European CCS-combo standard for superfast charging"):
  • Will the Zoe brand be retired and we can all look forward to talking about our Renault Clio ZE? Will it just be the Zoe components are used to make a hybrid (consolidating a lot of the 2 different production runs) and BEV but all future Zoes will wear the Clio name (killing the Zoe brand in the process)?
  • Or is a fully electric (BEV) just rumours and we all think it will just be another Hybrid (and the pictures do have an exhaust pipe.. so I think at least one Hybrid is a given)... So the Prius of Renault if you will? and Renault will launch a Zoe 2019 (after their Zoe 2018 face-lift).
  • A BEV 2019 Clio and a BEV 2019 Zoe (Why? Particularly as Zoe is modelled after Clio). Renault's "Drive The Future 2017-2022" does say "EV Leadership: 8 pure electric vehicles, 12 electrified models" so they could just be playing a numbers game.
More questions than answers but let the speculation begin...
 

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IMO they will keep the Zoe name as they already have a lot of marketing and PR capital in the name and it is the top selling EV in Europe.

I suspect next Clio will get a hybrid (and/or mild hybrid) to get emissions down and keep price affordable - I doubt a PHEV. We haven't seen any PHEV as small as Clio, probably due to difficulty of packaging. The Mini Countryman PHEV is bigger and can stand a premium price - the Clio less so!
 

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Hybrids are IMHO evolutionary dead-end....
PHEV are there purely for tax discount hacking and automaker emission accounting purposes
as a customer, hybrids were always the VERY strong no-no for me - ICEs are dinosaurs as it is so adding extra systems and increasing weight/maintenance costs etc. makes no sense where I am standing
I think resource-wise Renault would be wasting money investing in hybrid development - they probably do not want to become Toyota with no BEV (excluding Twizzy and similar scooters :D) at the moment - although who knows, Toyota's "bet" on hydrogen may be ultimately the right one
I can give Renault one area where they defo need improvement :D
(assembly) quality - speaking to people, that is always no. 1 reason why they do not consider Renault (and why I may not go for another Renault in the future)
 

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Co-author of CanZE. Q210 nov 2013
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What I have understood Clio will have a hybrid version, and ZOE will be the BEV. It's ALL speculation, I have no better sources than anyone else.

@VaclavH Completely agree on the "worst of both worlds" argument, but the hydrogen part is, IMHO, totally off. For some lectures I have been giving I have done quite some research and there is simply no feasible way to produce, transport and store hydrogen. On top of that there are serious safety issues and other raw material problems. Maybe goes a bit too far to delve into all these issues in detail here, but my conclusion is that hydrogen is a total nono. Toyota, as far as I have understood, is silently trying to get into the BEV space. Won't be easy, especially on battery procurement.
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Toyota, as far as I have understood, is silently trying to get into the BEV space. Won't be easy, especially on battery procurement.
Source: Toyota could abandon hydrogen in favor of EVs

Hybrids are IMHO evolutionary dead-end....
I think more cars will go the BMW i3 "range extender" route (until the big batteries and all companies, looking at you Nissan, have active battery cooling). I've tried a few 160 miles journeys on the motorway in my Zoe now and I can see how the market isn't quite covered for anyone trying to do that long-term (particularly in the cold). Of course not many people actually do.. but there needs to be a solution for people who claim they do hundreds of miles (whether they actually do or don't). Hybrids match that at the moment.
 

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PHEV are there purely for tax discount hacking and automaker emission accounting purposes
PHEVs are a dead end long term, of course, as BEVs will eventually take over once the range and charging issues are resolved/matured but that is likely to be many years away. What PHEVs provide is a way for those that want to use electric power but don't want the inconveniences of a current BEV. Those inconveniences will be around a long time and so PHEVs do have a place.
 

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Co-author of CanZE. Q210 nov 2013
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I think more cars will go the BMW i3 "range extender" route.
I think you are on the money there. I also think that will quickly go the Q model route, as people quickly realize they are hauling weight they won't ever use. A bit like the granny charger in my trunk ;)
 

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I don't think that carrying the extra weight will enter into many people's minds. If it performs adequately then the weight isn't so important.

Carrying a small, efficient, ICE or put that weight into extra batteries... either way it is horses for courses IMO.
 

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Just to give you a different perspective if PHEVs didn't exist I'd still be driving a diesel. As it's is I've managed 68,000 EV miles and 82,000 in total in my i3 REX since Jan 15.

I'm swapping to a Passat GTE as I need 5 seats and to tow so I can avoid about tax and insurance on my 2nd car that does less than 2k a year. I have 2 choices... Spend 7k now on an older diesel estate or take a lease for 1700 down and 280/month on the GTE. The GTE will mean 40% of my miles are zero emission and will cost me less than running the diesel. That's a result. If I can persuade work to let contractors in to the car park and have EVSE points I can probably get those ZE miles over 80%.

The lease costs on a GTE are 1/3 that of a Tesla S which still can't tow or 1/4 that of the X. BEV are the end game , but we can get there slowly. I'd prefer to see 100% of cars capable of 50 miles EV range than 10% of cars capable of doing 150 miles and then needing to charge.

I had at one point thought of a Zoe or 2018 leaf. But my experience of public charging and minimum 60 miles a day commute with regular after work trips and 180 miles to mum and dad's meaning I'll avoid having to rely on rapid charging at all costs. I'll be down to 1 car which does everything I need... Except for not burning fossil fuels. And believe me that is not good enough that nearly 4 years after I ordered the i3 the market hasn't delivered. Maybe we need legislation and not tax incentives that say by 2030 all cars must be capable of at least 20 miles EV range. Then BEVs will be a cheaper option than a PHEV.

I look forward to late 2019 when the Tesla 3 comes to UK.. I'll be deferring my invite to purchase till the Passat lease finishes and hopefully they will have access dual motor 750kg tow capable car by then. Or theres someone else offering one.
 

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Co-author of CanZE. Q210 nov 2013
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@Paul_Moxhay Thing is, it's either indeed that small, efficient, etc, but we were talking PHEV's. At least current models are far from that. And if the development indeed goes small, efficient, etc, I think we are, from a technical point talking range extenders, as there is no need to mechanically add more power to the wheels at all. Current PHEV sales of i.e. Outlander (I know, extreme example, but most sold EV here for a few years) has dropped to zero in my country. Don´t get me wrong: we can agree to disagree of course!!
 

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I think you are on the money there. I also think that will quickly go the Q model route, as people quickly realize they are hauling weight they won't ever use. A bit like the granny charger in my trunk ;)
but that is - by definition- hybrid :D - but I understand the fundamental difference of course
but I think re i3 - and the reason why I did not go for it even though I SOOOO wanted to go for BMW - is that the range extender is a hack/workaround for the base battery being small - I would want that to kick in only in extraneous circumstances, not on your regular commute
 

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I would want that to kick in only in extraneous circumstances, not on your regular commute
It doesn't? (serious and honest question, I haven't driven one; I don't understand how it could work then without REX, that is why I am asking)
 

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Discussion Starter #13
but that is - by definition- hybrid :D - but I understand the fundamental difference of course
but I think re i3 - and the reason why I did not go for it even though I SOOOO wanted to go for BMW - is that the range extender is a hack/workaround for the base battery being small - I would want that to kick in only in extraneous circumstances, not on your regular commute
Base battery I thought was around the same when 22kWh cars were king.. Are you referring to 22kWh as small or does the range extender do other weird things in that car like to start the ICE based electricity generator periodically anyway to "preserve" the battery like the Prius does?

Hadn't read this before, BMW i3 - Wikipedia, but it's fascinating in how even with a battery upgrade the car doesn't want to use the petrol engine more (a modest 140 -> 180 mile increase despite there being 50% more capacity in the 2 battery models) and the petrol engine is only designed to be a backup, not a "I want to do a 500 mile commute / drive to Scotland".
 

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Funny that Ghosn (head of Nissan-Renault-Mitsubishi alliance) once said that hybrids are like mermaids: when you want a fish you get a woman, and when you want a woman you get a fish.

(Yet Nissan has hybrids on offer...)
 

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I can give Renault one area where they defo need improvement
I can give [email protected] RCI Banque. If they had 2 brain cells to rub together they still couldn't keep themselves warn. Saturday saw 2 envelopes come through my door. One with an invoice for £48 for damages on the hand back of Titanic, which I paid over the phone after contesting the original charges. The other was an invoice for Titanic for £7,297.87 to buy her although they took her back on the 28th of February. What a bunch!!
 

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Base battery I thought was around the same when 22kWh cars were king.. Are you referring to 22kWh as small or does the range extender do other weird things in that car like to start the ICE based electricity generator periodically anyway to "preserve" the battery like the Prius does?

Hadn't read this before, BMW i3 - Wikipedia, but it's fascinating in how even with a battery upgrade the car doesn't want to use the petrol engine more (a modest 140 -> 180 mile increase despite there being 50% more capacity in the 2 battery models) and the petrol engine is only designed to be a backup, not a "I want to do a 500 mile commute / drive to Scotland".
it is 33 kWh now but still.... 156 "nedc" km on electricity - I still consider it too low
plus I hear that the extender engine causing headaches if not used regularly ...
I myself have no personal experience and want to be explicit about that
but the doors probably do not squeak :D
 

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Discussion Starter #17
it is 33 kWh now but still.... 156 "nedc" km on electricity - I still consider it too low
plus I hear that the extender engine causing headaches if not used regularly ...
I myself have no personal experience and want to be explicit about that
but the doors probably do not squeak :D
@VaclavH, C'mon the correct trolling for this forum is clearly "the badge probably does not flake" ;).

I agree 41kWh is the lowest for me (and not all kWh are equal, some cars won't be as efficient as the Zoe even with a bigger battery).. I have needed to top-up charge on quite a few of my longer journeys now. 22kWh would in hindsight never have worked for me.
 

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I will be happy with a 60 kWh BEV. Provided it's reasonably aerodynamic it should be able to do 200 miles at 70 mph all year round. I don't think I would consider a car without proper batter thermal management given the battery degradation figures for 24 kWh and 30kWh Leaf batteries. I'll probably hold on to my Q210 Zoe until then. Hybrids and PHEV's while they work for some people just don't appeal to me. I'd prefer spend the extra money on a bigger battery rather than an petrol engine and generator. I appreciate that others might have more regular long journeys and the PHEV might be a better option for them I just don't do enough long journeys to justify the cost of lugging around a big battery or an ICE generator set.

There are some interesting petrol generators in development that use single pistons driving a magnet back and forward in a coil which have potential to deliver a lot more efficiency than a conventional 4 stroke engine. Whether they can meet emission standards and adequately control lubrication to give them a long enough life is another matter. When operating as a generator an engine only needs to work at one speed so it should allow a greater efficiency. The battery acts as a buffer allowing the generator to work intermittently.
 

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I think more cars will go the BMW i3 "range extender" route (until the big batteries and all companies, looking at you Nissan, have active battery cooling).
No, I don't think we'll see many more of these in the future. The i3 range extender was a product of a time when batteries were very expensive and struggled with weight and energy density.

But a range extender is expensive and complex to implement, and adds significant weight and complexity to the vehicle. Now days, batteries are cheaper and better. It makes more sense to take the money and weight you would have put into the range extender and just put in a bigger battery.

Or to look at it another way: It's relatively cheap and simple to add (mild) hybrid features to an existing ICE vehicle platform. But it's not cheap or simple to add a range extender to an EV.
 

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@Big277wave You'd indeed gain staying more or less at the optimum "RPM" (not a lot of R, but you know what I mean), but you'd still have the inherent losses of the thermal cycle. For petrol it will never go over 60-ish%.

@Renaissance Are you sure? Hybrid is easy to add if "base load" is performed by the petrol engine and the electric motor provides extra oomp, but if you want to keep the engine at an optimum you need planetary gears (Prius) or other gear "tricks". I don't dispute for a second that an engine and generator in itself is a complex piece of kit with again way too many moving parts. Integration in an EV? Not so much. IMHO.
 
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