Speak EV - Electric Car Forums banner

1 - 13 of 13 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
226 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
There is this new standard for DC fast charging and it is on some new cars but, not many chargers have it yet. I can get the receptacle for my car but, I have no idea how to wire the thing. The protocol for the j1772 is the same but, the question is- How do I wire in the two DC terminals? I certainly would not wire them directly to my battery, would I? Any one know? Bueller - Bueller - anyone?
 

·
Moderator
Joined
·
1,574 Posts
There is this new standard for DC fast charging and it is on some new cars but, not many chargers have it yet. I can get the receptacle for my car but, I have no idea how to wire the thing. The protocol for the j1772 is the same but, the question is- How do I wire in the two DC terminals? I certainly would not wire them directly to my battery, would I? Any one know? Bueller - Bueller - anyone?
I don't drive or customize our EVs... We drive production ones.

SAE Combo receptacles are different depending on where you are. In North America, the SAE Combo uses a J1772 and the two DC add-ons below it, elsewhere it's the Mennekes connection on top with two DC add-ons. So, first thing to identify is your location. (a lot more people around here are ex-North America).

Secondly, I remember hearing from someone not sure if it's EV West folks, or @TonyWilliams that there is licensing or additional expense related to SAE Combo/CCS vs. CHAdeMO ports.

Regardless of where you are, I would suggest adding CHAdeMO instead.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
226 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
I don't drive or customize our EVs... We drive production ones.

SAE Combo receptacles are different depending on where you are. In North America, the SAE Combo uses a J1772 and the two DC add-ons below it, elsewhere it's the Mennekes connection on top with two DC add-ons. So, first thing to identify is your location. (a lot more people around here are ex-North America).

Secondly, I remember hearing from someone not sure if it's EV West folks, or @TonyWilliams that there is licensing or additional expense related to SAE Combo/CCS vs. CHAdeMO ports.

Regardless of where you are, I would suggest adding CHAdeMO instead.
I am in the USA. The CHAdeMO is disappearing as it will be soon replaced and perhaps even banned in Europe by 2018. Here in the US it is replaced by the J1772 Combo. There are very few CHAdeMO chargers available now. Most every available charger is a J1772. I am considering buying the Chevy Bolt because it has the new J1772 combo connector installed and will fast charge to 80% in one hour. My current EV is very useful but has certain limitations for a primary vehicle.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
473 Posts
I am in the USA. The CHAdeMO is disappearing as it will be soon replaced and perhaps even banned in Europe by 2018. Here in the US it is replaced by the J1772 Combo. There are very few CHAdeMO chargers available now. Most every available charger is a J1772. I am considering buying the Chevy Bolt because it has the new J1772 combo connector installed and will fast charge to 80% in one hour. My current EV is very useful but has certain limitations for a primary vehicle.

That's a whole bunch of nutty talk. You are correct, however, that the GM Chevrolet Bolt will use CCS. Virtually every car currently offered with any of the several public DC charge protocol standards will charge to 80% in an hour.

CHAdeMO is not disappearing; quite the opposite, actually. CHAdeMO has doubled worldwide in exactly one year, from 5,500 to 11,000 (March 2015 until March 2016). The worldwide leading EV (and leader of all history) uses CHAdeMO only, the Nissan LEAF.

CHAdeMO is by far the world leader with over 11,000 installations worldwide, and every plug is interchangeable with another, again, worldwide.

CHAdeMO has over 3000 chargers in Europe right now, and is an EU official charge standard. It outnumbers regional standard CCS-Combo2 by 50% in Europe. Yes, there was legislation proposed by German officials and proponents of German auto makers of an outright ban several years ago, but of course, that went nowhere.

CHAdeMO grossly outnumbers regional standard CCS-Combo1 in its market of US / Canada. GM officially will not support installing or paying for CCS infrastructure.

In the USA, there are officially 1612 CHAdeMO chargers as of the update 23 March 2016 www.CHAdeMO.com


********

DC fast charging system standards IEC 61851-23 gives the worldwide requirements for "DC chargers" and provides the general requirements for the control communication between a DC fast charger and an EV.

IEC 62851-24 defines digital communication between a DC fast charger and an EV.

Worldwide IEC "Quick Charging" standards:

1) CHAdeMO (IEC System A) - same plug worldwide, official standard in Japan and European Union

2) GB/T (IEC System B) - China only

3) CCS COMBO1 (IEC System C) - approved by Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE), U.S. and Canada only

4) CCS COMBO2 (IEC System C) - Europe only

5) Supercharger (Tesla only, not recognized by IEC, uses different plug in Europe than the plug used in North America and Japan)

NOTES:

Neither GB/T nor CCS-Combo 1 & 2 are offered outside of their home markets of China, U.S. / Canada and Europe respectively.

Chameleon is high speed AC only, primarily in France, but throughout western Europe, anywhere a public 3 phase AC outlet is available (the operator must use their own charge cord).

*********

Our company builds electric vehicle charging equipment.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Dennis and smartie

·
Moderator
Joined
·
1,574 Posts
That's a whole bunch of nutty talk. You are correct, however, that the GM Chevrolet Bolt will use CCS. Virtually every car currently offered with any of the several public DC charge protocol standards will charge to 80% in an hour.

CHAdeMO is not disappearing; quite the opposite, actually. CHAdeMO has doubled worldwide in exactly one year, from 5,500 to 11,000 (March 2015 until March 2016). The worldwide leading EV (and leader of all history) uses CHAdeMO only, the Nissan LEAF.

CHAdeMO is by far the world leader with over 11,000 installations worldwide, and every plug is interchangeable with another, again, worldwide.

CHAdeMO has over 3000 chargers in Europe right now, and is an EU official charge standard. It outnumbers regional standard CCS-Combo2 by 50% in Europe. Yes, there was legislation proposed by German officials and proponents of German auto makers of an outright ban several years ago, but of course, that went nowhere.

CHAdeMO grossly outnumbers regional standard CCS-Combo1 in its market of US / Canada. GM officially will not support installing or paying for CCS infrastructure.

In the USA, there are officially 1612 CHAdeMO chargers as of the update 23 March 2016 www.CHAdeMO.com


********

DC fast charging system standards IEC 61851-23 gives the worldwide requirements for "DC chargers" and provides the general requirements for the control communication between a DC fast charger and an EV.

IEC 62851-24 defines digital communication between a DC fast charger and an EV.

Worldwide IEC "Quick Charging" standards:

1) CHAdeMO (IEC System A) - same plug worldwide, official standard in Japan and European Union

2) GB/T (IEC System B) - China only

3) CCS COMBO1 (IEC System C) - approved by Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE), U.S. and Canada only

4) CCS COMBO2 (IEC System C) - Europe only

5) Supercharger (Tesla only, not recognized by IEC, uses different plug in Europe than the plug used in North America and Japan)

NOTES:

Neither GB/T nor CCS-Combo 1 & 2 are offered outside of their home markets of China, U.S. / Canada and Europe respectively.

Chameleon is high speed AC only, primarily in France, but throughout western Europe, anywhere a public 3 phase AC outlet is available (the operator must use their own charge cord).

*********

Our company builds electric vehicle charging equipment.
As usual, thanks for the information @TonyWilliams. Personally if I were building or modifying my own #EV I would put support for any of the standards in my continent.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
226 Posts
Discussion Starter #7 (Edited)
Lots of conflicting information here and difficult to sort it all out. The Internet headlines are reading an end of CHAdeMO by 2018. Then there are other articles reporting that this is not true. Then there is this new combo standard that we certainly would not need at all if there were a solid standard. How many standards do we need to be standardized?
How many different kinds of receptacles should a car have to navigate the chargers?
And then to top it off, Tesla went their own way. I have never found many CHAdeMO chargers available in my area. Lots of J1772 chargers in Ann Arbor MI.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
226 Posts
Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
[QUOTE*********

Our company builds electric vehicle charging equipment.[/QUOTE]

I am willing to take it from someone who builds charging equipment. So, this brings me straight back to my original question. How do you install a DC fast charger into a car? I tend to favor the J1772 Combo since I want what is most available in my area. I am currently using a J1772 and a Elcon onboard charger that is compatible with 220 single phase. Now- whatever crazy multi-pin connector the world decides to finally use- how do I hook it up and will the LifePo4 batteries take the high current? Are we talking about 80 amps?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
473 Posts
[How do you install a DC fast charger into a car? I am currently using a J1772 and a Elcon onboard charger that is compatible with 220 single phase. Now- whatever crazy multi-pin connector the world decides to finally use- how do I hook it up and will the LifePo4 batteries take the high current? Are we talking about 80 amps?
CHAdeMO is typically 115-125 amps, but is designed for 200 amps (very few of those in the world), with a new specification of 300 amps on the horizon.

CHAdeMO voltage is 50 to 500 volts.

Unless you're pretty handy building circuit boards, and programming, you're not just going to hook up to any modern DC charger.

I'll give you a very brief overview of CHAdeMO. Of course, the two big pins are positive and negative DC, pins 5 and 6. There is no high voltage ground, as the system is isolated.

Then, there are 7 communication pins:

Two are a twisted pair for CAN digital communication, pins 8 and 9

Five are simple analog control pins, pins 1, 2, 4, 7 and 10 (12 volt DC based)

Here's the exchange:

TO START CHARGE

1) the plug from the charger is connected to the inlet in the car

2) pin 1 is a common 12 volt DC ground, and pin 7 is the "proximity" or connection check

3) when the charger sees pin 7 connected to the car, then the charger sends 12 volt DC to pin 2

4) the car sees 12 volts DC on pin 2, and then starts transmitting CAN over pins 8 and 9 about the car's battery parameters (is it compatible?)

5) when the charge determines that the car is compatible based on CAN from the car, it transmits its parameters (max charge time, max amperage, etc)

6) then the car grounds pin 4 to signal the charger to start charge (car is ready)

7) the charger locks the plug to the car with 12 volts DC, and grounds pin 10 so that the car recognizes that the charger is ready

8) the main contactors close on the car and the charger, the charger checks for greater than 50 volts DC to ensure connection

9) the car calculates how many amps are required, and sends a message via CAN every 100 milliseconds

10) charger responds within allotted time to amperage request, ramping up at a maximum of 20 amps per second to the lower of the charger maximum, or the car maximum request

TO STOP CHARGE:

1) send a zero current request message via CAN

2) charger stops, charger and car contactors open within 100ms

3) car measures zero volts present, opens pin 4

4) charger measure zero volts present, opens pin 10

5) charger stops 12 volt DC to plug lock

COMPLETE
 
  • Like
Reactions: satronev

·
Registered
Joined
·
226 Posts
Discussion Starter #10 (Edited)
CHAdeMO is typically 115-125 amps, but is designed for 200 amps (very few of those in the world), with a new specification of 300 amps on the horizon.

CHAdeMO voltage is 50 to 500 volts.

Unless you're pretty handy building circuit boards, and programming, you're not just going to hook up to any modern DC charger.

I'll give you a very brief overview of CHAdeMO. Of course, the two big pins are positive and negative DC, pins 5 and 6. There is no high voltage ground, as the system is isolated.

Then, there are 7 communication pins:

Two are a twisted pair for CAN digital communication, pins 8 and 9

Five are simple analog control pins, pins 1, 2, 4, 7 and 10 (12 volt DC based)

Here's the exchange:

TO START CHARGE

1) the plug from the charger is connected to the inlet in the car

2) pin 1 is a common 12 volt DC ground, and pin 7 is the "proximity" or connection check

3) when the charger sees pin 7 connected to the car, then the charger sends 12 volt DC to pin 2

4) the car sees 12 volts DC on pin 2, and then starts transmitting CAN over pins 8 and 9 about the car's battery parameters (is it compatible?)

5) when the charge determines that the car is compatible based on CAN from the car, it transmits its parameters (max charge time, max amperage, etc)

6) then the car grounds pin 4 to signal the charger to start charge (car is ready)

7) the charger locks the plug to the car with 12 volts DC, and grounds pin 10 so that the car recognizes that the charger is ready

8) the main contactors close on the car and the charger, the charger checks for greater than 50 volts DC to ensure connection

9) the car calculates how many amps are required, and sends a message via CAN every 100 milliseconds

10) charger responds within allotted time to amperage request, ramping up at a maximum of 20 amps per second to the lower of the charger maximum, or the car maximum request

TO STOP CHARGE:

1) send a zero current request message via CAN

2) charger stops, charger and car contactors open within 100ms

3) car measures zero volts present, opens pin 4

4) charger measure zero volts present, opens pin 10

5) charger stops 12 volt DC to plug lock

COMPLETE

OK many thanks. I am fairly good with circuit boards and some programming but, I may never get around to creating my own hardware for this. I would have to look into the specifics of the CAN protocol and build something with an micro processor. Truly a complex matter. I see the various connectors ( CHAdeMO, and SAE Combo) being sold to the DIY crowd. I have little idea how they are getting any use out of them without the onboard electronics. Someone somewhere has already done it for the CHAdeMO because I have seen a few examples. Truthfully, I getting inspired to buy that new Chevy Bolt. I think that the DIY electric car has seen its best days and it will soon be time to move on.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
226 Posts
Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
For anyone buying an EV, I think that the options to charge it should be of key interest. I am seeing adapters of all kinds for the Tesla cars. Tesla owners seem to want to use charging stations other than stations that Tesla Motors have built for them. Other EV owners want to know where to get an adapter to use the Tesla charger. Well, they can't do that. Many other models have J1772 and CHAdeMO so they are ready for either. Now there is the Bolt and the Spark with this new Combo receptacle and I am not seeing other options for the car. Hopefully the SAE Combo is enough. I am starting to hope that the same charging stations will start providing support for all types or, we will end up with one type. I wish that the public charge station also had about 10 of a truly standard NEMA socket for 220 single phase for level 2 charging. I would bring my own level 2 charger with cord and plug in just like I do at home. A level 2 charging station can be that simple and, that cheap to furnish. We could all start charging while we are waiting in line for the fast charger. It might help prevent "charger rage." If there were a EV charger for every pot hole in America, we would have it all covered.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,779 Posts
I suspect that with the fairly tepid take up of non-Tesla EVs in the USA you are likely to find the de-facto standard becomes Tesla Superchargers and everyone else is left out in the cold.

The Japanese are likely to stick with CHAdeMO (as they have something crazy like 40000 stations within the one country) while the Europeans are flopping around with the CCS Combo you mention but are being fairly limp with the roll out of both cars and stations.

Meanwhile Tesla are powering ahead ...
 
1 - 13 of 13 Posts
Top